I have made a set of PFC's for a DIY'er They Will Be Installed Reversing The Gases

[Pazuzu]

Are you teaching us how to have PFCs and reversed gas in our home HVAC units? Because...all of those posts are for residential type systems, and do not really do us any good, do they?

Do you guys have a working system yet? I mean, mine will be running and cold by this weekend, and I started from scratch half way through this thread!

[KelogGes]

One of the main components of any refrigeration or air conditioning system is the condenser. As its name indicates, the condenser condenses refrigerant vapor sent to it from the compressor. However, the condenser also performs other important functions. The condenser has three main functions:

• Desuperheating;

• Condensing; and

• Subcooling.

The first passes of the condenser desuperheat the discharge line gases sent from the compressor. This prepares these high-pressure, superheated vapors coming from the discharge line for condensation or “phase change” from a vapor to a liquid. Remember, these superheated gases must lose all of their superheat before reaching the condensing temperature for a certain condensing pressure. Once the initial passes of the condenser have rejected enough superheat and the condensing temperature has been reached, the gases are referred to as saturated vapors. The refrigerant is then said to have reached the 100 percent saturated vapor point.

Condensing is system-dependent and usually takes place in the lower two-thirds of the condenser. Once the saturation or condensing temperature is reached in the condenser and the refrigerant gas has reached 100 percent saturated vapor, condensation can take place if any more heat is removed. As more heat is taken away from the 100 percent saturated vapor, it will force the vapor to become a liquid or to condense.

When condensing, the vapor will gradually phase change to liquid until 100 percent liquid is all that remains. This phase change is an example of a latent heat-rejection process, as the heat removed is latent heat, not sensible heat. This phase change will happen at one temperature, even though heat is being removed. (Note: An exception to this is a near-azeotropic blend [ASHRAE 400 Series blends] of refrigerants. With these blends, there is a temperature glide or range of temperatures when the blend is phase changing.) This one temperature is the saturation temperature corresponding to the saturation pressure in the condenser. This pressure can be measured anywhere on the high side of the refrigeration system as long as line and valve pressure drops and losses are negligible.

The last function of the condenser is to subcool the liquid refrigerant. Subcooling is recognized as any sensible heat taken away from 100 percent saturated liquid. Technically, subcooling is defined as the difference between the measured liquid temperature and the liquid saturation temperature at a given pressure. Once the saturated vapor in the condenser has phase changed to saturated liquid, the 100 percent saturated liquid point has been reached. If any more heat is removed, the liquid will go through a sensible heat rejection process and lose temperature as it loses heat. The liquid that is cooler than the saturated liquid in the condenser is subcooled liquid. Subcooling is an important process because it starts to lower the liquid temperature to the evaporator temperature. This will reduce flash loss in the evaporator so more of the vaporization of the liquid in the evaporator can be used for useful cooling of the product load.
DAMAGED, DIRTY, OR FOULED CONDENSERS

If a condenser becomes damaged, dirty, or fouled, less heat transfer can take place from the refrigerant to the surrounding ambient. Dirty condensers are one of the most frequent service problems in the commercial refrigeration and air conditioning fields today. If less heat can be rejected to the surrounding air with an air-cooled condenser, the heat will start to accumulate in the condenser. This accumulation of heat in the condenser will make the condensing temperature rise. Now that the condensing temperature is rising, there will come a point where the temperature difference between the condensing temperature and the surrounding ambient (the Delta T) is great enough to reject heat from the condenser.

Remember, a temperature difference is the driving potential for heat transfer to take place between anything. The greater the temperature difference, the greater the heat transfer. The condenser is now rejecting enough heat at the elevated Delta T to keep the system running with a dirty condenser. However, the system is now running very inefficiently because of the higher condensing temperature and pressure causing high compression ratios.

Figure 1 shows a condenser that has been damaged with its fins (extended surfaces) bent horizontally so no air can pass through. This scenario is very similar to a dirty condenser where no air is allowed to pass through. Figure 2 shows a different condenser located in an ocean town in Florida where its fins have been corroded or destroyed by the high concentration of salt in the air. The corroded fins impede heat transfer from the condenser, and the absence of fins mean less surface area for heat transfer from the condenser.

Even the subcooled liquid temperature coming out of the condenser will be at a higher temperature when the condenser is damaged, fouled, or dirty. This means the liquid temperature out of the condenser will be further from the evaporating temperature. This will cause more flash gas at the metering device and a lower net refrigeration effect.

The compressor’s discharge temperature will also run hotter because of the higher condensing temperature and pressure, which cause a higher compression ratio. The compressor will now have to put more energy in compressing the suction pressure vapors to the higher condensing or discharge pressure. This added energy is reflected in higher discharge temperatures and higher amperage draws.

Publication date: 6/6/2016

The Professor: The Importance of the Condenser | 2016-06-06 | ACHRNEWS

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Are you teaching us how to have PFCs and reversed gas in our home HVAC units? Because...all of those posts are for residential type systems, and do not really do us any good, do they?

Do you guys have a working system yet? I mean, mine will be running and cold by this weekend, and I started from scratch half way through this thread!

The information I am posting today has great value to early model 911s a/c DIY'ers owners knowledge and learning enhancement; THIS INFO explains highly technical aspects in much simpler terms so both laymen and still learning young technicians understand easier @ a lower level.

All this newly published information is for any kind of A/C or Refrigeration System, and also applies to any automotive, or 911 A/C System!!!

Good luck with your 911 DIY A/C modifications!

[KelogGes]

Improvement of R134a Performances by Addition of R290 1992

I am Federally EPA UNIVERSALLY Licensed for ALL Types Refrigerants

I only use straight R-134A on 911s WITH MY PFC's and repeatedly get vent temps in the 30s F @ 95 ambient in all the early 911s I have been involved with using my newer technology

I don't promote flammable refrigerants due to their potential explosion danger or worse!!!

However I post this for scientific knowledge

http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1139&context=iracc

don't play with refrigerants unless you truly know what you are doing, they can ALL kill you

[McLovin]

It's been a year and 2 months.

Has the DIY cab owner reversed any gasses yet?

How long does it take to reverse gasses?

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

Publication date: 6/6/2016

The Professor: The Importance of the Condenser | 2016-06-06 | ACHRNEWS

I think the article is older. FWIW.

This one states 2009. Of no consequence.

The Professor: Condenser Efficiency Affects the System

FWIW: Here's an article that breaks down superheat almost to a layman's level.

http://www.achrnews.com/articles/94178-superheat-and-subcooling-made-simple

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Do you guys have a working system yet? I mean, mine will be running and cold by this weekend, and I started from scratch half way through this thread!

Reid/Kellogs is still in the learning phase of his revolutionary a/c system development; aka - he's trying to figure out how mobile a/c works (hence his copy and pasting of tech article snibbits)!

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo

Reid/Kellogs is still in the learning phase of his revolutionary a/c system development; aka - he's trying to figure out how mobile a/c works (hence his copy and pasting of tech article snibbits)!

Huh. Well, I enjoyed reading his long reposted articles, while driving to work this morning.
I enjoyed it because the air coming out of the vent, with an initial internal cabin temperature of 88 degrees, was 55 degrees in 3 minutes. High fan speed with a Werblerstrublens fan from Griffiths. As an aside...yes, car in garage all night, internal temp was 88 degrees this morning. some of you with your "oh, my car gets a vent temp of 40, but it's only 73 degrees outside" can suck it...

I figure an almost 35 degree delta after 3 minutes, with a fan speed so high as to prevent much temperature transfer to the air is good, huh? Turn the fan down the low, and the vent temp went to 45 degrees. That's a 43 degree delta. By the time I got to work, 20 minutes in light street traffic, the temp next to my head was 70 degrees.
I know that I had an evaporator core temp of 38 degrees (direct measurement) when filling it yesterday, that's at idle, low fan speed, car not moving (so, hot air curtain forming around car, preventing optimal condenser flow...).

No PFCs. No reversed gas. No increased engine temperature from a hot condenser.

[daepp]

[Bob Kontak]

daepp,

Thanks for the semi.

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Are you teaching us how to have PFCs and reversed gas in our home HVAC units? Because...all of those posts are for residential type systems, and do not really do us any good, do they?

Do you guys have a working system yet? I mean, mine will be running and cold by this weekend, and I started from scratch half way through this thread!

Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Systems ALL Share the same scientific basic consensus of operation regardless if they are commercial or residential etc; its not rocket science! What I have posted is very useful information; but it is a few steps above layman's and posted for those who want to learn and expand their knowledge a little higher

I have several 911 owners in south Florida running my 911 A/C system new technology inventions together with "REVERSING THE GASES" and they are All More Than Happy for the last couple of years!

This well known Calif. Cabaret owner is the first DIY I have SHIPPED TOO and given the installation info too and signed non-disclosure agreement to; he is doing a further technological A/C System addition enhancement with 30s F precise computer temperature evaporate control , besides my pfc's and "REVERSING THE GASES" invention.


Pazuzu as my reply to yours was later than your work, what are your results?

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

Pazuzu as my reply to yours was later than your work, what are your results?

Well, as you may or may not know, my proprietary secret super duper system does not reverse the gas, since that wouldn't make much sense when you are not using a decklid condenser. As well ,I'm not using PFCs, since I instead am using this crazy new proprietary technology called a serpentine condenser...very rare, very special, made with real snakes.

Then, since I was able to do my own design work instead of suffering under someone's "non-disclosure agreement", I was able to get my system designed and built in a few weeks, using off the shelf parts and some basic garage skills. With hoses and fittings, I'd be at around $400 total ($270 for the condensers and fans, $130 for hose and fittings). Maybe $450.

So, since Southern Texas would make Miami weep in pain (and I know that, because I lived in Miami for 2 years...), my system needed to perform.

I have 3 electronic thermometers with remote bulbs, which consistently show 1 degree total variation between them. For the last week, I've had one bulb in the intake area and one in the output vent. Well, highest fan speed (with the super strong Windstorm/Werblersturmernederehf fan of Griffith), I get a 30 degree differential across the evaporator. Lowest speed, closer to 38 degree differential and 32-33 degree evaporator core temps.


Good enough?

[Rawknees'Turbo]

^^^

That rocks, Mike - really good job you've done down thar in Souf TexAss (with pitiful, obsolete technology and ****)! And no shart about the "make weep in pain"; been a non-stop hot and extremely humid scorcher in Norf TexAss as of late (hotter-n-hell at night even) and I bet it's worsererer down your way!

[KelogGes]

THIS TREAD IS NOT DEAD

I started this tread on April 14-2015, 04:37 pm

Right after I custom made a a new design with a pair of matched set of Parallel Flow Micro-Channel A/C condensers for a WELL KNOWN PELICAN West Coast 86 Carrera Cabriolet DIY owner

I have stayed in contact with this DIY owner

IT'S now 2 years later

The 86 CAB owner has had a TON of things (to say the least) he has been doing on his 911 restoration project and now has moved his family to THE EAST COAST to Georgia and is finishing closing on a new house at this moment. He had towed his 911 from California.

He expects to now finish his restoration project by this spring. The A/C System is partly installed, he just rebuilt his A/C front PFC blower a few days ago; The new front and rear PFC's I made for him and new A/C hoses were installed 2 years ago.

He is personally rebuilding the transmission at this moment

Its frustrating to me this project is taking so long, but what can I do its ok, I am not doing the INSTALL!
Regardless I plan to help him complete his A/C project no matter how long it takes, I cant wait until he charges the A/C and we dial in the gases that will be computer digitally controlled.



On another note I have just contacted a Well Known Major USA heat exchanger manufacturer to make my 911 heat exchanger designs and we will sign nondisclosure agreements this week

[lateapex911]

<-- This Well Known and Helpful (but not Major) Pelican 911 BBS Poster finds this thread amusing.

[KelogGes]

THIS WAS A GOOD PROVEN DESIGN, I NOW consider my design shown Obsolete !
DUE TO MAJOR NEW ADVANCES IN MICRO-CHANNEL ENGINEERING

However look at THE TOTAL LOW WEIGHT, 5.5 pounds FOR BOTH HEAT EXCHANGERS! of my old design and the performance of my old designs.
using only 2 EXTREMELY LIGHT heat exchangers in the body cavity oem places compared to anyone else.

My new/next designs well be far more efficient due to recent advances in Micro-Channel Technology & manufacturing techniques. I am constantly changing this with state of the art engineering.

Originally Posted by KelogGes

State of The Art PFC Technology custom made for early model 911's also using my discovery Reversing The Gases

CAPABLE OF 30's DEGREE A/C VENT TEMPS @ 95 DEGREE'S AMBIENT

5 LBS 5 OZ's Total Weight of my new version of BOTH FRONT & REAR PFC/s

Front PFC ONE pound .95 ounces

Rear PFC THREE pounds .56 ounces



The Top PFC takes a shoe horn to fit it into the cavity between the front wheels but fits perfectly into the body

NOTICE the curve to perfectly fit the the contours of the full width of the deck lid outside air inlet on the bottom PFC so you can completely seal the rear pfc to the deck lid!

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

On another note I have just contacted a Well Known Major USA heat exchanger manufacturer to make my 911 heat exchanger designs and we will sign nondisclosure agreements this week

3 or 4 years ago when you first started chirping away, the idea of parallel flow condensers was pretty interesting, because they were rare to see in a generic form factor. You obviously contacted an Asian manufactuer and got them to take one of their standard designs and slightly bend it to match the decklid.

But, see, now...you can go on Amazon and buy one of DOZENS of generic form factory PFCs. Multiple sizes, fittings, mounting points, aluminum, black, with or without receiver dryer...

So, you're overpriced, over sold proprietary "non-disclosure" item is boring now.

[KelogGes]

SIX YEARS "chirping away" HERE about MY PFC's I DESIGN ENGINEER AND CUSTOM MAKE AND KEEP IMPROVING FOR EARLY MODEL 911's A/C SYSTEMS


I DON'T DO CHEAP CHINA MICROCHANNEL; GO BUY IT WASTE YOUR CHEAP MONEY!



The more I have learned over the years the more there is to learn as this technology improves daily with NEW STATE OF THE ART.

its about time to increase production and enter the global market

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

3 or 4 years ago when you first started chirping away, the idea of parallel flow condensers was pretty interesting, because they were rare to see in a generic form factor. You obviously contacted an Asian manufactuer and got them to take one of their standard designs and slightly bend it to match the decklid.

But, see, now...you can go on Amazon and buy one of DOZENS of generic form factory PFCs. Multiple sizes, fittings, mounting points, aluminum, black, with or without receiver dryer...

So, you're overpriced, over sold proprietary "non-disclosure" item is boring now.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

GO BUY IT WASTE YOUR CHEAP MONEY!

This is why you catch heat.

I was interested yesterday in the advancements in micro-channel improvements you mentioned.

Why do you have to say things like this?

[Jonny H]

From my understanding, the OP has commissioned microchannel (aka PFC) condensers that fit the stock AC positions in the 911. That is a great idea and they will improve the efficiency typically by 1.25.

We also use custom sized PF condensers in our AC systems. Our (European) manufacturer, keeps the technology up to date. They have to or they would not be competitive in the market place. We do not claim this as our own design or technology. We just use them as they are more efficient.

OP, you have a good product there but to infer that you are on the 'bleeding edge' of condenser design is a bit of a stretch of the imagination. Not trying to start a fight, just sayin'

Make a run of them, do some testing, publish the price and folks will buy them. Simples!