$$Going once going twice$$

[MikeSid]

Dr.? Art Dealer? Ph.D. in Art History?

I dunno, but I would expect anyone who deals in art to be respectful of concerns about genuiness v. counterfeit, and not simply fly off the handle.

I think we're all pretty convinced this is the fake, but there's a part of me that wants just one more twist out of this story.

[TRE Cup]

So- while we are waiting for GOAT (tim) to check out the car this evening, how about a lil open end discussion on what makes up a real car?

I will use Cobras for sake of discussion, that way there is no insinuation towards any present or past pelican members cars.

What constitutes a real car?
example- a cobra got really wrecked during its racing career- i mean twisted and bent so it was a total write off. Then it sat in a canadian junk yard to rust away. Some sharp eyed friend of a friend and presto, a car buff goes to see it. He takes the pragmatic approach looking at this literal pile of garbage . Decided to buy a small part of the frame, the paperwork from the yard, and the i.d. tags. He goes to england and has an exact new copy made by the original AC works that constructed them for Shelby (and themselves under Cobra of Britain- COX serial #s for you cobra buffs)
So,- is this car considered the real deal- as a rebuilt or remanufactured?

lets hear your oppinions on the subject before i tell you the conclusion to the story (yeah i know most has been given away already)

[jpahemi]

Should the spare be an alloy wheel; something like a Fuch 5X14 or 15?
j.p.

[MikeSid]

Nope, not the real deal.
At this point that Cobra is like grandpa's hammer that's been in the family for decades.....we've only replaced the head once, and the handle three times.
Not to get all philosophical, but the Cobra has lost it's essence - which means different things to different people. But to me it's more than a VIN.

[kenikh]

I say it depends on if the buyer cares, right? In my opinion, the simpler the story, the more valuable the car. So in the case of a twisted RS: An RS gets mangled, gets sent to the factory and gets "repaired" with all factory parts. All that's left are the VINs. Is it real?

This has been a major question mark around the restoration of the "first" 901 now owned my JS. I have read that a rusting hulk was seen outside of the resto shop at the factory that bore a striking resemblance to that car, but remarkably, had some pretty important parts cut out of it. If the factory does it, is it legit?

[Joeaksa]

If the factory does a restoration or rebuild, then I would consider it as the same car, because they have the authority to sign off on it as such.

Will be very interesting to see the datatags and body stamps on this car.

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by Dutchie
He says he posted the mercedes papers by mistake and that HE sold that mercedes. Funny because in the german add they use the same mercedes paper. Hard to see but look at the tires description 7.25 x 13 continental same like in the ebay ad.

The thing that makes him smell bad is that he claims he posted the Porsche papers. Ok -- Fine. It turns out that they are Mercedes papers by mistake. Ok -- Fine. But why suddenly balk at posting the Porsche documents which he claims to have been willing to do earlier??? That's what smell's bad. Once he posts the Mercedes documents by mistake and suddenly he gets shy with the Porsche documents. He's got to know that this makes the whole documentation thing stink like last week's garbage.

[lateapex911]

Interesting. He has added an "auction" with the papers. He says not to bid. It's tempting.....

here is the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Porsche-RS-certificate_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ118256QQihZ 014QQitemZ330001951825QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[trader220]

In my little ribbing with the guy via email he cliams the site in Germany hijacked his photos from eBay which were just taken last week in his driveway.

[TRE Cup]

SoCalSC- exactly the conundrum that occurs from time to time. Two cars with the same "provenance"

in the case of this cobra, it was recognized as being the real deal- remanufactured as it was, but still the one with the correct vin- certainly not worth the full tab as a complete sister competition car with impecable line of ownership- but quite valuable nonetheless
..... till ANOTHER cobra fan recognizes the now really spent shell in the junk yard and starts to sleuth its provenance! Yeah- the wiped out car was ultimately recognized in a court and lawsuit to be the real deal. The recreation car got a "R" appended to its serial number and its value plummeted accordingly

so... back to porsches- you could buy replacement shells from the factory for your wrecked car. Having Porsche reshell the car is expensive and not always easy to do- crossing sometimes onerous customs duty borders two times could run you broke. So various chassis were sent here and there to replace wrecked ones. Some of these chassis went on to garner whatever laurels racing history offered. Of course the value rests with the car that actually raced- but they may have a replacement #- no vin !


Another conundrum: There are rumours on how chassis plates for factory race cars got swapped from time to time because one car was not ready in time and papers filed for import permits took too long to reapply with a different car. when you are a relatively small company you don't have the luxury of taking 6-8 cars to a race every time- the logistics would kill your budget. Fortunately over the years most of the confusion as to which chassis won what race has been cleared up, but it was messy

another scenario involving a RS
car is wrecked, motor and trans goes to another RS, then wrecked RS gets whatever panels to rebuild it/ repair rust etc. and a proper 911/83 engine Not as valuable as a complete RS with match #s , but still an RS

all this adds to the spice of valuation and ownership. That is why you will see the well off (and well educated in the car field) getting only the best most complete and original cars. They don't have the time to deal with problems a better "deal" offers. Too much drama!

[ruf-porsche]

Originally posted by Por_sha911
This is a sure sign that something is rotten in Denmark.

Why are we picking on the Dane?

Why not something rotten in Baghdad.

[TRE Cup]

"In my little ribbing with the guy via email he cliams the site in Germany hijacked his photos from eBay which were just taken last week in his driveway."

Seriously?!?! now he is digging his own "grave"

jeez !!!

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by lateapex911
Interesting. He has added an "auction" with the papers. He says not to bid. It's tempting.....

here is the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Porsche-RS-certificate_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ118256QQihZ 014QQitemZ330001951825QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

You notice that he will not provide a clear photo of the whole page of the factory documention? I played with it a bit on a special effects program but its too far out to enlarge and keep the print and signature readable.

Tim, when you get there take a good look at the bottom of this "certificate" and tell us what he is trying to hide. There is something down there that he does not want people to see...

[Por_sha911]

Originally posted by jorian
Dr. Andreas Anton 707-431-2239
What kind of Dr do you suppose he is?

We all know the terms:
B.S. Bull____
M.S. More of the Same
PhD. Piled Higher & Deeper!


ruf-porsche quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Por_sha911
This is a sure sign that something is rotten in Denmark.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why are we picking on the Dane?
Why not something rotten in Baghdad.

Myhumble apologies for picking on the Danish. Why not Baghdad? Because the phrase could be "Something is BLOWN TO BITS in Baghdad"

[Grady Clay]

Chris & Tim,

Take pictures. There is an original here as a bare tub in white – well yellow. It is an original 3rd series (9113601xxx). I can compare tomorrow.

Best,
Grady

[PorscheGuy79]

In the vintage Porsche justice system, counterfit based offenses are considered especially heinous. In southern California, the dedicated detectives who investigate these vicious felonies are members of a elite squad known as the Special Victims Unit. These are their stories.

[cegerer]

So does anybody know what this type of VIN plate on the eBay car is off of? Ironically, the only other car I remember seeing one on was the questionable "ST" from the Canary Islands that was the subject of a Pelican thread a year or 2 ago ....

Info about this 1970 ST



I tend to think they are replacement plates, since both seem to be in near perfect condition.

[TRE Cup]

it looks like the new replacement ones from porsche AG- not KG as we all know is what the 73 came with- lets see what chris and tim bring

[kenikh]

You tell me; doesn't the stamping font from the above sample look all wrong when compared to this one which is legit and off of an 'S'?



Look at the 3s and 9s in particular.

[randywebb]

Great idea for a TV series!
________________________

"Why not something rotten in Baghdad." [?]
- uh, 'cuz that Shaking Spear fella there never used that there line in one o' his plays he wrote way back when...?

Of course, maybe the famed playwrite Sheiks-peare used the line...
___________________________
I sent the guy another warning re the law coming down on him. Included a "I'm sorry if somebody else cheated you" thing but reminded him he should not then try to perop. the fraud on the next person. No reply yet.

___________________________
re real cars -- it's just a category or a series of categories that we created for convenience so we can lump things together. I'd say if your car is at one edge of the category you should say it's a "real xxx" but "yyyy."

Sorta like how I describe my car to the dealer parts guy when he asks what year it is. He usually rolls his eyes after I say, "well the tub's a '73, but the suspension is from a Carrera and so are the brakes, and so's the engine really except it is all rodded with carbs/cams/...." Someday I'll be able to get to the tranny and interior before he rolls his eyes...