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Lets Play Name that No Start

Well I just finished my rebuild with the following additions:

3.4 P's and C's
Sc cams
Modded Fuel head
K27HFS
SSI exhaust
Tial 46mm.

The first time I started it, it started but rumbled to a stop. It was ignition timing. as I was re-indexing the distributor I knocked the green wire which then disintegrated. I replaced the green wire and now have spark.

I then tested the fuel system and couldn't hear the fuel injectors on the left bank, instead I heard a high pressure sound like it was partially clogged. I pulled the fuel distributor and spark plugs, and there was signs of fuel everywhere it should be.

I will now either swap out the fuel distributor with my old euro or repair the modded fuel head (please see the other thread about that).

The issue is, I have a sneaking suspicion the fuel head is not the issue with no start. wouldn't It still try to fire up even if only one bank is getting fuel? after I replaced the green wire it would crank, but not fire. I figured the plugs were soaked which all six were so I pulled all of them to let the cylinders air out.

Anyone have any ideas of what else could be causing this no start issue?
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John A.
1979 Porsche 930: 3.4L, SC cams, Twin plug, Leask WUR, Custom SSI turbo exhaust, Tial WG, K27HFS, and we can't forget the Zork (short lived depending on my homeowners assoc.)
05 Boxster S: For the Track.
06 Dodge Ram 2500 Power Wagon: Tow Vehicle
Old 11-21-2007, 11:01 AM
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When I installed the modded head I had to back off the CO significantly, the swap resulted a crazy rich condition to the point of not running. Instead or the 3% I now run at about 0%. It's only one of two things, fuel or spark and you have spark....
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82 930 Pearl White 3.3 964 cams, K27 HF, Kokeln, fuel enriched, IA fuel head mod, wur mod, crankfire, 2X plug, Aase worked heads. 1bar, GHL, zork, 23/33 bars, low, loud
Old 11-21-2007, 11:30 AM
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Without knowing any more about your engine, you may not be to the HP point where the high-flow head will be manditory (>375whp). If so then one bank may be rich as sly stated, and the other side is dry. That would be a hard engine to start.
Did you pull a plug and check for spark when cranking?
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-21-2007, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slyguy View Post
When I installed the modded head I had to back off the CO significantly, the swap resulted a crazy rich condition to the point of not running. Instead or the 3% I now run at about 0%. It's only one of two things, fuel or spark and you have spark....
I did the same with my modded fuel head - turned the AFR adjustment screw counterclockwise a bit to lean things out. As I mentioned to you before, the modded fuel head has been a real challenge to tame. The Leask WUR helped with that and having a better performing turbo (HFS) has also helped use the fuel.

Also, be sure that the spring-loaded AFR adjustment screw isn't hung-up on your air cleaner assembly; I remember you telling me that you've gone to the style I run (same as RarlyL8). I had to cut a notch in my air cleaner base for the screw.
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-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 11-21-2007, 09:10 PM
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Also, keep in mind the ignition dizzy runs counter clockwise in these engines, so be sure your firing order is correct.
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-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 11-21-2007, 09:12 PM
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I testing the spark on cylinder 1 and it does fire as it should. the left banks plugs were soaking wet with gas compared to the right bank. I think I will just put my stock fuel head on for break in, as I wont be hitting high RPM's, and that will give me a chance to have the modded head tested. Everything has been airing out over night, and I bought some new break in oil as I'm sure the oil in there is full of fuel. I just want to get this baby started before I hit the 1 year mark!
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John A.
1979 Porsche 930: 3.4L, SC cams, Twin plug, Leask WUR, Custom SSI turbo exhaust, Tial WG, K27HFS, and we can't forget the Zork (short lived depending on my homeowners assoc.)
05 Boxster S: For the Track.
06 Dodge Ram 2500 Power Wagon: Tow Vehicle
Old 11-22-2007, 11:19 AM
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Well I swapped out the fuel distributor with my stock one, once again I am getting fuel and spark, but not even a chance of firing up. The starter is turning the engine, but I'm not even getting as much as a backfire!

I double checked ignition timing, and even turned the dizzy both ways, then tried to crank it.

What could I be missing here? I was always worried about the condition of the wires in the harness, but now that I have changed out the green dizzy wire, I am not sure which other wires could be preventing it from firing.

Any idea's at all would be greatly appreciated. I am giving myself the weekend to try to figure it out, then its on the tow truck and off to a shop.
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John A.
1979 Porsche 930: 3.4L, SC cams, Twin plug, Leask WUR, Custom SSI turbo exhaust, Tial WG, K27HFS, and we can't forget the Zork (short lived depending on my homeowners assoc.)
05 Boxster S: For the Track.
06 Dodge Ram 2500 Power Wagon: Tow Vehicle
Old 11-23-2007, 11:57 AM
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[hiding under my desk] - there's no way that the cams are 180 out...right?
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-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 11-23-2007, 02:18 PM
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If you need an extra set of plugs...you know where to find me!
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-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 11-23-2007, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sand_man View Post
[hiding under my desk] - there's no way that the cams are 180 out...right?
I am positive I double checked before sealing up the chain boxes, but that has been in the back of my mind b/c we did have so much trouble with them.

Is there anyway to check without removing the chain box covers? If i pull the covers I will need new gaskets since I used sealant.

I checked the plugs and they are putting out a spark.
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John A.
1979 Porsche 930: 3.4L, SC cams, Twin plug, Leask WUR, Custom SSI turbo exhaust, Tial WG, K27HFS, and we can't forget the Zork (short lived depending on my homeowners assoc.)
05 Boxster S: For the Track.
06 Dodge Ram 2500 Power Wagon: Tow Vehicle
Old 11-23-2007, 02:23 PM
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Well in your opening post you indicated that the car did rumble to a start and then stop when all hell broke loose with that damn green wire! So it looks like it did start and run once...even if briefly. I wonder if your plugs are just shot.
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-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 11-23-2007, 03:09 PM
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Did you check the spray of the injectors? I usually ascribe to the farmer's tale..."9 times out of 10 it's the fuel", although my last two problems were a)plug wires, and b)completely disintegrated green wire connector. I have tried to check timing on start, just to get an idea of where it's at, but my light won't trigger at that speed and voltage. Possibly someone here knows of a way to do this. I can time it with points but not CDI.
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Old 11-23-2007, 04:11 PM
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Depending on your schedule, I might be able to steal away for a couple of hours to lend you a hand this weekend. You are welcome to my spare coil, CDI box, and a set of plugs...although it does look like you've got spark.

I will say that I once had a set of plugs gas-foul so badly (in my 930) that they were unusable.
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-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 11-23-2007, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sand_man View Post
Depending on your schedule, I might be able to steal away for a couple of hours to lend you a hand this weekend. You are welcome to my spare coil, CDI box, and a set of plugs...although it does look like you've got spark.

I will say that I once had a set of plugs gas-foul so badly (in my 930) that they were unusable.
A fresh pair of eyes could come in handy. Just dont want u to get in trouble since it is a family weekend. I was thinking it could be the coil b/c i did think it had weak spark.

I emptied out the fuel tank, and put in 5 gallons of fresh premium fuel so i think I am good there, but there was old gas still in the system that could of fouled the plugs. I can also hear the injectors flowing on both sides of the block.

If you can make it this weekend, give me a call as it would be greatly appreciated.
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John A.
1979 Porsche 930: 3.4L, SC cams, Twin plug, Leask WUR, Custom SSI turbo exhaust, Tial WG, K27HFS, and we can't forget the Zork (short lived depending on my homeowners assoc.)
05 Boxster S: For the Track.
06 Dodge Ram 2500 Power Wagon: Tow Vehicle
Old 11-23-2007, 08:11 PM
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Cool...I'll give a shout later on today (Saturday). One other thing you can check: if you are running a different/new intercooler, be sure that all unused vacuum ports have been properly plugged (intake manifold, BOV housing, etc.). An air leak will also keep your engine from starting and running. The brake booster line off the manifold connected?

At this point I'm thinking it's your spark plugs...
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-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 11-24-2007, 01:44 AM
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Update

So Sand_Man came over this evening to try to help me figure this out. This is what we did:

1. Swapped out spark plugs
2. Checked for spark (it was there)
3. Played with ignition timing
4. Even tried moving the dizzy while cranking

Still no start. we did notice after it had cranked for awhile and the starter started to slow down b/c the battery was running out of juice, that it made a faint noise like it was almost firing and would shoot out small puffs of smoke, but it was really weak. It was almost like it didn't have enough of something to get full combustion, and it would only happened after cranking for awhile.

We also noticed the Tach jumps all over the place and then settles right about when it makes the faint noise. Could this be a grounding issue?

I pulled the passenger side valve cover, and while the engine is at TDC I can jiggle the intake rocker. This would tell me the cams aren't 180 off right?

Does anyone have any idea's? even if it is just a guess? I would hate to get this far, just to have it towed to a shop, and find out its something obvious.
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John A.
1979 Porsche 930: 3.4L, SC cams, Twin plug, Leask WUR, Custom SSI turbo exhaust, Tial WG, K27HFS, and we can't forget the Zork (short lived depending on my homeowners assoc.)
05 Boxster S: For the Track.
06 Dodge Ram 2500 Power Wagon: Tow Vehicle
Old 11-24-2007, 08:37 PM
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Worst case scenario, we were thinking that the cams could be timed 180 degrees out. As a check, if John got the number one cylinder in place for a valve adjustment at Z1 (number one intake and exhaust valves should be "loose"), then the number four cylinder exhaust and intake valves on the opposite side should be tight (on the passenger side)...right? If number four is "loose" at the same time number one is, would that indicate incorrect cam timing?

Also, seeing the tach jump all over the place during starting leads me to believe that it could be ignition related. After several continuous cranks, the engine begins to make a slight sputtering and small puffs of smoke emerge from the tail-pipe, but it just won't catch. I'm confident he's got fuel.
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-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 11-25-2007, 03:19 AM
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We also played musical spark plug wires by moving them around different posts on the dizzy - keeping the correct firing order each time. Not sure if it made a difference. The sputtering doesn't happen until several continuous cranks.
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-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 11-25-2007, 03:22 AM
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Did you try starting the engine with the throttle body completely open?

It sure sounds like a flooding condition, though I don't know why one bank would be wetter than the other.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 11-25-2007, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK-I View Post
Did you try starting the engine with the throttle body completely open?

It sure sounds like a flooding condition, though I don't know why one bank would be wetter than the other.
One bank was wetter than the other b/c the previous fuel distributor must of been clogged and wasnt getting enough fuel to one side.

I am sure the engine is flooded by now. whats the best way to fix that? I already pulled all the plugs and let it air out over night
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John A.
1979 Porsche 930: 3.4L, SC cams, Twin plug, Leask WUR, Custom SSI turbo exhaust, Tial WG, K27HFS, and we can't forget the Zork (short lived depending on my homeowners assoc.)
05 Boxster S: For the Track.
06 Dodge Ram 2500 Power Wagon: Tow Vehicle
Old 11-25-2007, 09:15 AM
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