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Question 930 engine CIS problem, please help

Hello I have a car with a 930 engine and yesterday the car stopped. i know that there is a problem with the injection system, but not sure what is wrong.

the problem started after i had a hard acceleration in first gear, when i was going to put it in second gear the engine starts to run uneven and suddenly stops.

beforee it stops i look on my wide band air fuel ratio digital gauge and i can see that the engine doesn't get any or not enough fuel. I try to start the car but it only splutter a bit and wont run. i get the car into my garage and check the fuel pumps, they get power when turn the key.

i then detach the fuel line that goes into the CIS (after the filter) and put the hose in a bucket, try to turn the key and it comes plenty of fuel.

I then attach the hose again and try to start the car, the car starts but the engine runs very uneven and it wont idle. with the gas pedal carefully pressed i manage to get the engine run at 2000 RPM. after 30 second the car stops and wont start. I can see on the fuel ratio that i doesn't get enough fuel and the AFR peaks up 22 and then goes back to 14, this happens some times before it goes up to 22 and engine stops.

I wait some minutes engine starts and the same happens.

Please does anyone have any idea what can be wrong, and what should i check first?

Kjell
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Last edited by thechiller; 06-28-2008 at 09:39 AM..
Old 06-28-2008, 05:03 AM
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Spark.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
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1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-28-2008, 09:40 AM
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Spark issues shouldn't cause leaning like that. You need to check fuel flow at the injectors. You can pull them, put them into glasses, turn on the ignition, and push up on the air flow meter and you should see, after say 30 seconds, an equal amount of fuel in each glass. I'm not sure of the spec'd amount of fuel that should flow from each injector in a given time. In the SC it's easy to get to the fuel plunger (pushing up on the air flow meter) but haven't tried this in the 930.
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Old 06-29-2008, 04:15 AM
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Check all the fuses. my car was dying and I had to really rev it to go home. The cra would die at every slow down or light unless I revved the crap out of it. I drove home playing w/ diff. geras and the clutch just to make it. I checked and one of the bullet fuses was out in the rear of the car. Called my mechanic and he said that one shouldn't be the problem..put the fuse in and 6 months later no problems.

These CIS cars do some strange thing sometimes ;(

What about the CDI box when mine was going bad a few years ago I had some weird issues before it died??
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Old 06-29-2008, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroyN View Post
Spark issues shouldn't cause leaning like that. You need to check fuel flow at the injectors. You can pull them, put them into glasses, turn on the ignition, and push up on the air flow meter and you should see, after say 30 seconds, an equal amount of fuel in each glass. I'm not sure of the spec'd amount of fuel that should flow from each injector in a given time. In the SC it's easy to get to the fuel plunger (pushing up on the air flow meter) but haven't tried this in the 930.
Just a fyi... on 930 CIS the airflow plate goes the opposite dirction from the 911SC.
you gently push it down on a 930 to mimic airflow and send fuel to the injectors.
Old 06-29-2008, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroyN View Post
Spark issues shouldn't cause leaning like that.

What happens on an AFR meter when fuel gets injected to a cylinder but is never burnt?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-29-2008, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
the problem started after i had a hard acceleration in first gear, when i was going to put it in second gear the engine starts to run uneven and suddenly stops.
Did you check your O-rings and turbo up-pipe? They could have blown out causing a huge ail leak during your hard 1st gear run.
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Old 06-29-2008, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
Just a fyi... on 930 CIS the airflow plate goes the opposite dirction from the 911SC.
you gently push it down on a 930 to mimic airflow and send fuel to the injectors.
Cool, thanks for the info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanuk
What happens on an AFR meter when fuel gets injected to a cylinder but is never burnt?
As you surely suspect, you would see a rich condition.
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Old 06-29-2008, 08:21 PM
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Check spark, then go for air leak

First, no spark will definitely show lean on wide-range O2 (Oxygen goes in, and comes back out again --> lean O2)

Pull plug wire, attach plug, ground at threads and look for nice blue spark.

If none, check ignition.

If there, look for air leak. Air leaks downstream of the flapper door means that air is getting into the engine that has not been "accounted for" ---> lean condition. Check that big rubber elbow that comes off the airflow meter. I have had that come off and cause a similar symptom.
Old 06-29-2008, 08:59 PM
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+1 to Brian's comment, I vote for IC o-ring. This is exactly what my car did when I popped the o-ring last week.
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Old 06-29-2008, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Squirrel View Post
First, no spark will definitely show lean on wide-range O2 (Oxygen goes in, and comes back out again --> lean O2)

Thanks, this was my understanding.

Shame the car doesn't run. If it did and when it got on boost it went rich then it would very likely be an air leak.

I think Brian is right as it likely got blown out when on boost and you lifted off the gas.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-30-2008, 05:06 AM
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Thanks for the help.

I do not have a original inter-cooling system, but a water-cooled system, so RarlyL8 you are correct.

Because of my hard 1. gear run the turbo pressure made the silicon hose on the inter-cooler inlet to pop of. I discovered this when i started to dismount the pipes.

It was very strange that the engine will not run at all if it doesn't get air from the the turbo, not even on idle running. So the conclusion is that the engine did get too much fuel and when the fuel amount is way too high the Inovate LC-1 wide band AFR gauge does give a wrong indication, so it looks like there is not enough fuel but in reality the mix is pig rich.

i connected the silicon hose and everything worked fine.



and here you can see why i have a watercooled system






thanks for the help

Kjell
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Old 06-30-2008, 02:20 PM
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Thats the first time I've seen an air pump filter attached to the inlet side of the cold start aux air slide valve or whatever you want to call it.
Thats unmetered intake air during cold start and warm up with it like that.

Maybe your car is so rich it works anyway.
Old 06-30-2008, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
Thats the first time I've seen an air pump filter attached to the inlet side of the cold start aux air slide valve or whatever you want to call it.
Thats unmetered intake air during cold start and warm up with it like that.

Maybe your car is so rich it works anyway.
I didn't know how else to solve it, but yes it's very rich during varm up. do you have any suggestion?

Kjell
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Old 06-30-2008, 03:14 PM
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Very cool.....
More pictures please! Are those oil lines on the driver side?
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Old 06-30-2008, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevie 77 930 View Post
Very cool.....
More pictures please! Are those oil lines on the driver side?
Steve, no they are self made 1" aluminum piping for cooled water to the inter cooler. I made the piping in aluminum because it heat transferee and weight are is the best on this material.

You can see some more here.

Watercooled intercooler system on aircooled 911

Kjell
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Old 06-30-2008, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
Thats the first time I've seen an air pump filter attached to the inlet side of the cold start aux air slide valve or whatever you want to call it.
Thats unmetered intake air during cold start and warm up with it like that.

Maybe your car is so rich it works anyway.
I was wondering WTH that was in chillers other thread.

I too would have thought that would mess up the idle mixture and starting etc etc.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 07-01-2008, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thechiller View Post
It was very strange that the engine will not run at all if it doesn't get air from the the turbo, not even on idle running. So the conclusion is that the engine did get too much fuel and when the fuel amount is way too high the Inovate LC-1 wide band AFR gauge does give a wrong indication, so it looks like there is not enough fuel but in reality the mix is pig rich.
Because air got in past the metering unit the mixture was in fact too lean, as indicated by the LM-1.

If un-metered air enters the engine the CIS will not add enough fuel to the engine.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 07-01-2008, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thechiller View Post
I didn't know how else to solve it, but yes it's very rich during varm up. do you have any suggestion?

Kjell
Having the air come through the metering unit will make it run even richer still.

I see another problem though... When on boost, air will come out of the electric idle valve (the thing with the sliding disc in).
This is a waste of boosted air and will also make the engine run richer on boost.
The stock factory IC had a connection for it on the cooled side of the IC.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg

Last edited by NathanUK; 07-01-2008 at 06:35 AM..
Old 07-01-2008, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanUK View Post
Having the air come through the metering unit will make it run even richer still.

I see another problem though... When on boost, air will come out of the electric idle valve (the thing with the sliding disc in).
This is a waste of boosted air and will also make the engine run richer on boost.
The stock factory IC had a connection for it on the cooled side of the IC.
I was thinking to conect the Warm up regulator inlet after the turbo, but before the inter-cooler. This because there are limited possibilities after the inter-cooler.

So you mean that when the car is on boost the air will leak out through the warm up regulator?

Does anyone have a picture that shows how the original piping and hose setup was on the 930?

thank you for your help

Kjell R
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Old 07-13-2008, 09:35 AM
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