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Brian,

Quote:
Exactly what performance gain do you expect to see with the spun aluminum CIS version of the Tornado? I'd be glad to dyno one for you but I'm not sure what significant benefit this is for a sub-350whp 930. You would need to tell me exactly what parameters to measure. I assume AFR, HP and torque throughout the operating range.
Also, does installing this device on the metering plate require a re-calibration of the plate?
Glad to see you jump in here you always add reason to times of insanity.
Added quote to give you an idea of what this does; supposedly.
It mounts on top of the metering plate and weighs less than an ounce.
Does not require recalibration of the plats.

Quote:
I was wondering if there weren't two objectives here. One being adding
weight, via, heavier sensor plate for more precise balancing of the arm, hence,
reacts faster initially & moves down quicker. Two being the velocity plate on top
of the sensor plate to allow the sensor plate to move further into the venturi
and past the stall point hence allowing full plunger movement and max fuel
Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 03-09-2009, 09:38 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #101 (permalink)
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Keith,

Called my guy back today to help clarify my understanding of this thing.
It does in fact sit on top of the metering Plate. It weighs less than an ounce
and does not require recalibration of the plate.
In talking with him he did say it helps get the plate moving from rest, did
to allow fuller movement into the venturi, and (just for you because I know you'll love this) it did seem to
smooth out the rich midrange condition.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 03-09-2009 at 10:14 AM..
Old 03-09-2009, 09:54 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #102 (permalink)
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Jeff,

Great stuff. Appreciate your getting in here.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 03-09-2009, 09:58 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #103 (permalink)
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I read in different Porsche racing books that Porsche modified the metering plate on the 934 to keep up with the engine performance increase (it had to use CIS to comply with Groupe 4 rules). If someone could have access to a true 934, it would be a great opportunity to see what Porsche did to get the most of a CIS turboed engine.
Old 03-09-2009, 10:03 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #104 (permalink)
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Cole..
I was under the impression with the original sales description i posted earlier that you have to reset the position where the plate sits,i also thought you removed your old plate??..Maybe i am wrong though..
Below is a qoute from the sales advert i posted

THE FASTER THE AIR ENTERS YOUR ENGINE THE SOONER THE TURBO SPINS UP AND THE SOONER YOU GET UP TO SPEED,ITS THAT SIMPLE.AND HERE IS A WAY TO GET QUICKER ACCELERATION.OUR DOME SHAPED ALLUMINIUM VENTURI PLATE INREASES THE AIRFLOW PLATE SURFACE TO GIVE YOU BETTER AIR FUNNELING AND QUICKER FUEL ENRICHMENT.SIMPLE BOLT ON REQUIRES NO MODIFICATIONS.YOU WILL NEED A FEELER GAUGE FOR SETTING THE PLATE HEIGHT.

YOU WILL NEED A FEELER GAUGE FOR SETTING THE PLATE HEIGHT.???
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"92" 964 turbo,Modified and recently rebuilt using all ARP hardware..
Purpose built fuel controller set up to acheive perfect fuel curve on CIS inj.
Old 03-09-2009, 10:10 AM
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[QUOTE=911st;4531558]Looks like the bottom of a Bud?QUOTE]

Yep, just trying to throw a little levity into the equation. So much testosterone and serious thought going around I felt we needed a dose of reality...or a beer for good measure. I was wondering who would notice!
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Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 03-09-2009, 10:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #106 (permalink)
 
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this may be getting a little weird...

i'm looking at the bottom of the tub of fake butter in my refrigerator in a new light.

so many possibilities...

size does effect performance.
Old 03-09-2009, 10:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #107 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
I've done some fiddling in the past with the ideas in this thread.

Exactly what performance gain do you expect to see with the spun aluminum CIS version of the Tornado? I'd be glad to dyno one for you but I'm not sure what significant benefit this is for a sub-350whp 930. You would need to tell me exactly what parameters to measure. I assume AFR, HP and torque throughout the operating range.
Also, does installing this device on the metering plate require a re-calibration of the plate?

Someone mentioned fuel heads. The Mercedes V8 is the same casting as the 930. You can also use a 928 CIS fuel head. The problem with this is fuel distribution of the extra 2 injectors. The stock 930 pancake intake is not designed to distribute fuel evenly. Another problem is fuel mileage. You now have 8 injectors running all of the time.

Brian,

My feeling is the main idea of the rased profile metering plate is it adds windage to the top of the MP so as it progresses to the higher air flow point, the MP starts to stall. The hope is with the added volunm on top of the MP, it will not stall and allow access to the full fuel capacaty of the head. Thus, this will flaten the AFR curve.

If some one exausts the limits of the current head by getting full travel of the metering pin with air flows, then addes the HF head with accompining WUR adjustments, then somthing like the MBZ head could be looked at. On the factory 924 race cars they used a 928 head and plumbed two ports into one each injectors on a four cylinder.

That would not work well for us. However, blocking one and keeping the other for added fuel might work if one was going crazy. Maybe dump it at the intake of the IC for good atomization and added ID effect. Again, this would be extream as there a lot of capacaty in the stock head if one learns how to access it.

Below is using a wedge instead of a dome buy you might see we are tryin to keep the arm form stalling to soon and get a flater AFR curve and the fuel that most do not get our of there stock head.

Old 03-09-2009, 11:41 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #108 (permalink)
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If you did use a fuel head from an 8 cylinder and hooked up one or two extra CIS injectors just above the throttle butterfly you could easily plumb them through a fuel solenoid available from a nitrous oxide kit supplier like NOS or nitrousworks so they aren't spraying extra fuel all the time and when you don't want it.

Then use an RPM switch to open the fuel solenoid above whatever RPM you decide on to richen things up. The summit racing digital rpm switch is programmable and half the price of the analog MSD rpm switch that also needs pill$

If you run the ground trigger wire from the rpm switch through a double throw multi pole 12 volt relay that is activated by the full throttle position switch on the the throttle body then you can have it so the extra injectors only spray fuel at full throttle over a certain rpm set by you.
With multiple poles on the double throw relay you can also wire the AC compressor to it so the AC compressor clutch disengages at full throttle, and... If you still have the '86 on, USA cars lambda system working then the trigger wire for the fuel enrichment relay under the driver seat would go to the relay instead of the throttle position switch.
Anotherwords you could have the factory's lambda system open loop mode fuel enrichment relay still work along with the other things being triggerd by the full throttle position switch.

You could also put a small light in the console or somewhere out of the way wired in parallel with the fuel solenoid that would light up letting you know the RPM switch is working

Last edited by JFairman; 03-09-2009 at 01:38 PM..
Old 03-09-2009, 12:23 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #109 (permalink)
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stup,


[QUOTE][SIMPLE BOLT ON REQUIRES NO MODIFICATIONS.YOU WILL NEED A FEELER GAUGE FOR SETTING THE PLATE HEIGHT.
/QUOTE]

I had always been under the impression you simply removed the bolt
holding the plate in place sit the venturi plate on top and reattached the
center bolt. You do need the feeler gauge to recenter the original metering
plate before you tighten it down. Mine came with it's own sensor plate as
well as the venturi plate and bolt. Then after reading Keith's post I thought I
had better check. The guy I talk to is the guy who used them and had
them made.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 03-09-2009, 12:44 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #110 (permalink)
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Thought of that to and it is interesting. One additional injector will add about 17% more fuel. That is a big jump. However, if you were at 14.5 that could taking you to 12.5/1 so it might work.

Having 7 run at all time and you can recalibrate the control pressure to slow the metering plate travel down and this just adds more range using a normal tuning approach. No add ons required.

At some point air flow capacity has to become the restriction.

I am guessing we can get the following added fueling.

Sock head taking Metering Plate to full travel. 10-15% plus. (Andial fueler gets that much)

Re-adjusted to flow more (IA). 10-15% more fuel.

7th injector, 17%

8th injector, 34%

That could be up to 80% more fuel possible.

If stock deliver max is about 380hp that would take us to almost 700hp if we can figure out how to flow enough air.

Old 03-09-2009, 12:52 PM
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J & Mark,


Quote:
i'm looking at the bottom of the tub of fake butter in my refrigerator in a new light.
so many possibilities...
size does effect performance.
Quote:
Looks like the bottom of a Bud?

If you give it some thought we are a little humor !!!!!

It kinda reminded me of the top off the plastic case my
first wife's diaphragm came in; only much smaller !!!!!!!

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 03-09-2009 at 01:04 PM..
Old 03-09-2009, 12:54 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #112 (permalink)
 
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Seems to me you'd need the origonal sensor plate in place. If a smaller diameter dished sensor plate was installed in place of the origonal one and the air gap around the edge of the plate was larger than stock the cranking on the starter motor would not be enough to to pull it down and turn the fuel pumps on and expose the beginning of the metering slits in the fuel head for idle speed fuel delivery.

Anotherwords if the airgap at the edge of the sensorplate was bigger than stock by a couple mm or more the amount of air being sucked by when trying to start the car would just flow through the larger gap and the plate would not move and the pumps would not come on and the car would never start.

If this gadget was on top of the existing sensor plate, then starting and idle speed would move the plate into the same position as origonally, but it seems at higher rpms the sensor plate would be sucked or pulled downward more while pushing the control plunger higher in the fuel head resulting in more fuel going to the injectors... thats the idea anyway.
Old 03-09-2009, 12:58 PM
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[QUOTE=cole930;4532794]stup,


Quote:
[SIMPLE BOLT ON REQUIRES NO MODIFICATIONS.YOU WILL NEED A FEELER GAUGE FOR SETTING THE PLATE HEIGHT.
/QUOTE]

I had always been under the impression you simply removed the bolt
holding the plate in place sit the venturi plate on top and reattached the
center bolt. You do need the feeler gauge to recenter the original metering
plate before you tighten it down. Mine came with it's own sensor plate as
well as the venturi plate and bolt. Then after reading Keith's post I thought I
had better check. The guy I talk to is the guy who used them and had
them made.

Cole
Dose not add up for me. I think you change them out.

Is anyone scheduled to dyno said plate to see if we get the extra fuel?

Again, if this works like it should it is basically a $100 fueler that will solve most owners want when it comes to running 1 bar boost.

I got one point more fuel by bleeding CP using basically an Andial fueler. If we did not have capacity left, this would not work.

If you richen idle to 3.5% CO, you will see more fuel up top. If we did not have untaped capacity, this would not work.

The MP shurly stalls. Add mass to it so the air flow pushes it down further and we will bet more fuel and a flatter AFR curve!

Can we get the metering plate to Brian or someone to test it on a dyno or using a Wide band on the street?
Old 03-09-2009, 01:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #114 (permalink)
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Quote:
If this gadget was on top of the existing sensor plate, then starting and idle speed would move the plate into the same position as origonally, but it seems at higher rpms the sensor plate would be sucked or pulled downward more while pushing the control plunger higher in the fuel head resulting in more fuel going to the injectors... thats the idea anyway.
Quote:
If you richen idle to 3.5% CO, you will see more fuel up top. If we did not have untaped capacity, this would not work.

The MP shurly stalls. Add mass to it so the air flow pushes it down further and we will bet more fuel and a flatter AFR curve!



" Thats it Mr. Watson thats it !!!!!"

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 03-09-2009 at 01:49 PM..
Old 03-09-2009, 01:13 PM
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To All,



I do not have the venturi plate in my hands at this time. Steve Weiner has it
with my CIS . He is going to install it after he finishes the mod on my CIS. I will
have it back within a couple weeks. I would be willing to send it to Brian for
testing. I have arrangements made for having them produced.
As soon as I get it back I will take more pictures and post them so you
can all get a better look at it. At that time we can all decide who is going to
do what and if everything pans out I will make them available to anyone who
wants one. By the way, they also used them on their large displacement, big HP
engines with fuelers and multiple turbos.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 03-11-2009 at 10:10 AM..
Old 03-09-2009, 01:38 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #116 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
I've done some fiddling in the past with the ideas in this thread.

Exactly what performance gain do you expect to see with the spun aluminum CIS version of the Tornado? I'd be glad to dyno one for you but I'm not sure what significant benefit this is for a sub-350whp 930. You would need to tell me exactly what parameters to measure. I assume AFR, HP and torque throughout the operating range.
Also, does installing this device on the metering plate require a re-calibration of the plate?
The performance gains are more for engines with upgrades as opposed to stock motors. The whole idea is to get full travel of the MP arm which allows more fuel into the engine during higher boost levels. I think someone here who dyno'ed an engine said that at full boost they were able to flood the motor just by pushing down on the stock MP with a screw driver. So there is much more full to be had and this spun aluminum version allegedly allows it. The beauty of this thing would be in maintaining the CIS without all the craziness of EFI. Blame it on the economy. LoL
Old 03-09-2009, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100sport View Post
I read in different Porsche racing books that Porsche modified the metering plate on the 934 to keep up with the engine performance increase (it had to use CIS to comply with Groupe 4 rules). If someone could have access to a true 934, it would be a great opportunity to see what Porsche did to get the most of a CIS turboed engine.
Now that would be a very interesting Spy picture. Perhaps that is where this idea came from. I'm just wondering why the idea never took off and why the spun aluminum MP got lost in the wind????
Old 03-09-2009, 03:28 PM
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Z,

Quote:
Now that would be a very interesting Spy picture. Perhaps that is where this idea came from. I'm just wondering why the idea never took off and why the spun aluminum MP got lost in the wind????
I've been a big 934 fan for a long time. It is extremely hard to find any information on the CIs used on the original 934. Here is a pic. and a quote
about the unit.


Quote:
Even includes the original Mercedes CIS fuel injection system completely rebuilt by Bosch
Steve Weiner raced 934's and 935's and has probably as much knowledge about the 934 CIS as anyone you can find. Steve has said the 934 CIS was completely different than the CIS we know on our 930's. One of these days I will ask him to give me some particulars.

You have to understand the CIS on 934's was pretty short lived as they were replaced with mechanical injection to help eliminate the turbo lag. Turbo Porsche's were relative new and there were not nearly as many out there as there are now.
As 930's got older and used 930's got more affordable the crazies started trying to get them to go faster and here we are. In the mean time all that old school stuff went by the wayside in lieu of 700HP and EFI. I mean it was probably 15 years ago when Power Hause even did this velocity plate. Been a lot of technology under the bridge since then. There are a lot of Porsche's out there still running CIS but only the crazies are worried about afr's under 1bar of boost. I'm
older than dirt and can't afford EFI so I'll dig this old stuff out wherever I can find it.
And some times it even works out.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 03-11-2009 at 10:12 AM..
Old 03-09-2009, 06:17 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #119 (permalink)
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Here's some old school.

These are the original 934 factory headers and Turbo I'm putting on "The Old Sled"





Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 03-09-2009, 06:54 PM
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