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Question MSD 6al vs MSD 6-BTM

Hi guys..

I need som help to choose which one of this MDS is best to my 930,6-BTM is more to turbo cars but the 6al is more popular to Porsches???My car will not be stock,it will have more hp and so...

Please help me...
Old 02-08-2010, 07:52 AM
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The "guts' inside are the same for the 6AL vs. the 6BTM....the only real difference being that the BTM (#6462) has the boost ignition retard feature. If you eventually plan to run with more pre-boost ignition advance then you'll want to use the 6BTM. Or, as an option, you can always run with the normal 6AL and add a separate BTM module (#8762) at a later date if desired.
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:43 AM
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PIM,



If you have not purchased a unit yet take a look at the new MSD 6AL-2 6530
Programmable unit. This unit does both in one unit and allows you to program
your own timing curve using a laptop.

I would suggest you do some searches here and some homework before
you buy anything. You need to understand what you want to accomplish and
what your best choices are.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 02-08-2010 at 10:10 AM..
Old 02-08-2010, 09:59 AM
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There is no threshold adjustment for boost retard on the MSD 6-BTM so it always starts retarding the timing at 2psi. Thats earlier than needed on a 930.
A 2psi boost retard threshold is probably a good average for a motor with higher static compression than a 930 like most of todays supercharged and turbocharged cars.

If you use the MSD 8762 boost retard box with a CDI you can adjust the retard threshold so it doesn't start retarding timing until 5 psi.
That gives you more useful timing control when under boost, and with the low compression of the 930 you get a little more low speed engine torque before boost arrives and while it first starts building by keeping the timing advanced a little longer with the 8762 retard threshold set to 5psi.

Anotherwords, in my opinion a 930 running around 15psi total boost with the static ignition timing advanced to around 12 degrees before top dead center at idle, and with the origonal vacuum advance/retard lines hooked up to the distributor and a properly adjusted MSD 8762 boost retard module set to 5psi threshold and 2 degrees of ignition retard per pound of boost along with the MSD 6 AL CDI... it is capable of giving a little better off boost torque than the MSD 6-BTM.
Old 02-08-2010, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
There is no threshold adjustment for boost retard on the MSD 6-BTM so it always starts retarding the timing at 2psi.
Well you learn something new every day. I didn't know that. That'll teach me to assume things now won't it?
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cole930 View Post
PIM,



If you have not purchased a unit yet take a look at the new MSD 6AL-2 6530
Programmable unit. This unit does both in one unit and allows you to program
your own timing curve using a laptop.
Cole
I once heard of some old guy - living on the edge - who got one of these new-fangled programmable timing gizzmos as a Christmas present.
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Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 02-08-2010, 11:44 AM
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Mr. Gimpy,

Have you broken anymore limbs since we talked last? Hope you had great Holidays.

Have you shoveled a path long enough to try the new BOV conversion?

I'm wiring the 6AL-2 in now, want to get some power to it so I can plug in the laptop and see what it looks like inside there.

Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 02-08-2010, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cole930 View Post
Mr. Gimpy,

Have you broken anymore limbs since we talked last? Hope you had great Holidays.

Have you shoveled a path long enough to try the new BOV conversion?

I'm wiring the 6AL-2 in now, want to get some power to it so I can plug in the laptop and see what it looks like inside there.

Cole
Hey Ol' Cole!

Sounds like you're getting pretty close finishing up the new 6AL-2. Keep me posted.

Ol' Mr. Gimpy here is making good progress...no more broken bones and the one I have is slowly healing. I'm walking now without any assistance, still stretching out all the ligaments to where they once belonged. Within 2 to 3 months I'll be back in the MX saddle again.

I should have the 930 back on the road any time now. Just have to change out the plugs (while I'm in there) and finish up installing my HKS EBC (finally got rid of my Fred Flintstone version for something a bit more sophistiated). Oh....and I pulled off the Andial Boost Enrichment stuff and need to sell it.

The weather here has been about as weird as I can remember. I don't think it's got below freezing but once or twice during January, and hasn't snowed since just before Christmas. 50 degrees and sunny yesterday. Too bad the 930 wasn't ready yet.

Mark
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:58 PM
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I have the MSD 6-BTM on my engine but haven't played around with the timing yet so i have it set to zero for now. Before i rebuilt my current engine i was using it to control my timing on a turbocharged 79 3.0 SC CIS engine and it worked well.

My only argument about the different units would be yes the other is more programable which can only be a good thing, but when my turbo builds boost, the milliseconds between 2lbs and 5lbs is moot, hell the difference between 2lbs and 14lbs is only a blink of the eye. In drag racing maybe it's negligible.
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Old 02-08-2010, 08:01 PM
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Hey Mark... Get well soon!!!

By the way my car is running GREAT!!! Since going with a colder plug Denso-w24 copper 28-32gap. from NGK...My psi-bar-gauge shows more boost. Top end pull just keeps pulling...The only thing, is the start-up takes a little longer. Approx. 2-3 times to kick over... I just drove the car last sunday..Weather/sunny but cold 30's,, I had fun with a corvette-c6 or c5--lowered and nice wheels, on a straightaway pull. I left him get 3-4 CAR jump..... Reeled him in with no problem... He wasn't happy and just looked straight during the cool down/run... Oh well... As long as my car has no HICKUPS, I'm good..

I would like to know your opinion on the denso's.

Walt

Last edited by wjfk32; 02-09-2010 at 05:58 AM..
Old 02-09-2010, 05:54 AM
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"My only argument about the different units would be yes the other is more programable which can only be a good thing, but when my turbo builds boost, the milliseconds between 2lbs and 5lbs is moot, hell the difference between 2lbs and 14lbs is only a blink of the eye. In drag racing maybe it's negligible."

I already had a the MSD 6AL so it made more sense for me to get the 8762 BTM, and I found a new one on ebay for around $150 shipped.
The other thing is I'm not a drag racer and have never had any interest in it.
I do like fast acceleration and getting pushed back in the seat like any other normal guy.. but I like road racing.

90% of my driving is around town in the city where I rarely accelerate at more than 5psi or around .3bar boost, so during that type of driving I think there is a small but noticeable low boost torque improvement with the boost threshold control set to 5psi... and my car with it's stock 4 speed, 315/30x18" rear tires, 7:1 compression, and 964 cams needs all the help it can get down low.

Using the 8762 BTM with the static idle ignition timing set to around 12 degrees BTDC made my car ALOT peppier and more fun to drive around town.
Out on the interstate or during full throttle accelerations I can't tell any difference because the final timing with full boost retard is about the same as stock.
Old 02-09-2010, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post

Using the 8762 BTM with the static idle ignition timing set to around 12 degrees BTDC made my car ALOT peppier and more fun to drive around town.
Out on the interstate or during full throttle accelerations I can't tell any difference because the final timing with full boost retard is about the same as stock.
Jim, as you know I'm stuck at 8 degrees max static advance because I've reached the stops in distributor adjustment room. Since I have the IC currently off, I may just pull the dizzy and grind out the adjustment slot to get an additional few degrees.
Your 12 degrees advance is a good target, and 5psi as a threshold is probably where I'll end up as well (currenly mine is set at 2 psi).

Something to think about: With 5 psi as the threshold and 2 degrees retard for each 1 psi beyond the threshold, the MSD 8762 will deliver it's maxium 15 degrees of retard at a little over .8 bar of boost...ending up with 3 degrees more retard than stock settings (your initial 12 degrees of static advance, minus the 15 degrees of MSD retard). Probably not even a noticeable performance impact on full boost - and maybe some added assurance against detonation.

For those of us that have applied this technology (and happily, I would add) I think we can all agree that most if not all of the extra advance should be shaved off by the time the engine reaches peak torque.
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark houghton View Post
Jim, as you know I'm stuck at 8 degrees max static advance because I've reached the stops in distributor adjustment room. Since I have the IC currently off, I may just pull the dizzy and grind out the adjustment slot to get an additional few degrees.
Your 12 degrees advance is a good target, and 5psi as a threshold is probably where I'll end up as well (currenly mine is set at 2 psi).

Something to think about: With 5 psi as the threshold and 2 degrees retard for each 1 psi beyond the threshold, the MSD 8762 will deliver it's maxium 15 degrees of retard at a little over .8 bar of boost...ending up with 3 degrees more retard than stock settings (your initial 12 degrees of static advance, minus the 15 degrees of MSD retard). Probably not even a noticeable performance impact on full boost - and maybe some added assurance against detonation.

For those of us that have applied this technology (and happily, I would add) I think we can all agree that most if not all of the extra advance should be shaved off by the time the engine reaches peak torque.
Hi Mark, I have the line on the retard knob inside the car straight up which is halfway between 1 and 2 degrees retard per pound of boost starting at 5psi. The slope knob is a potentiometer with 3 soft notches as you turn it and seems to be linear and not just 1, 2, or 3 degrees retard.

As I start to turn the slope knob counterclockwise towards 1 degree retard per psi of boost while under full boost acceleration I start to hear trace ping which is just occasional random tink like crackleing noises from the cylinder heads up around 5000 - 6000rpms. If I turn it more towards 1 the detonation will increase so the one time I tried that I quickly turned it back to 1.5
Next summer when it's 95 degrees out I may have to turn it more towards 2. We'll see when the heat comes back in a few months.

I know the instructions and MSD tech support which is likely just some kid reading the PDF instructions off a monitor says the 8762 BTM will retard 15 degrees total but I don't think it does if you set the threshold to 5psi and the slope to 1 psi retard per psi because if it did you wouldn't get any detonation according to what you're saying and if you turn the slope knob to less than 1.5 degrees retard per psi you definately hear detonation start. If you have a loud muffler you won't hear it and you have to have the windows up and sunroof closed to hear it, you have to know what it sounds like. I've tuned alot of cars, especially BMW's by ear over the years so I do know what it sounds like.
When I turn the slope knob clockwise beyond 1.5 towards 2 or 3 degrees retard per psi starting at the 5psi threshold... I can feel the motor loose power while accelerating at full boost.
Old 02-09-2010, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
When I turn the slope knob clockwise beyond 1.5 towards 2 or 3 degrees retard per psi starting at the 5psi threshold... I can feel the motor loose power while accelerating at full boost.
That doesn't suprise me, which might support the total 15 degrees retard that MSD claims (even if it is some tech head reading off the manual).

Since day one I've been using 2 psi as the threshold and 1.5 degrees/psi as the slope. The only change I'm contemplating is going to a 5 psi thresh. That would have the MSD retarding 11.25 degrees @ .8 bar, which should almost perferctly negate the added 12 degrees static advance.
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Old 02-09-2010, 12:06 PM
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Msd 6530

Hey Guys,

I've been working on this new MSD install and wanted to share what I've learned so far. First I had concerns with locking out the distributor, possible phase shift issues, as well as hoping I could talk to someone who has used one. So with all those issues addressed I thought I'd throw it out there.

Quick pic. of it mounted:



I had a thousand questions so I read everything I could, talked with the MSD support people, they were incredibly knowledgeable and patiently helpful, and spoke with Jerry Woods who had just put one in a 930. When it was all done I have nothing bad to say and the flexibility of this thing is amazing.

What got my attention was the boost retard timing curve based on MAP sensor input. We're talking a boost timing curve can be programmed in relation to boost/vacuum pressure within the intake manifold. The curve can be programmed from 2 to 45 psia from 0-25* in 0.1* incriments with up to 32 different points and the points are interpolated every millisecond. Really helps take the guess work out of it no more dials to set.

The timing curve has the same flexability. You can program 0-12,500 RPM in
0.1* increments for every 100 RPM up to 32 points and they are interpolated every millisecond.

Initally you can hook the box up and run the default settings for both Boost retard and Run retard curves and it will operate just like a plain old stand alone MSD 6AL. You can leave the Boost default setting and work on the Run curve and then go back and work on your Boost curve or vice versa. You can run just a Boost Retard curve, just a Run Retard curve, or both.

With the completely programmed Run Retard curve you will need to lockout the distributor. Locking out requires that you disable the vacuum advance, strip out the mechanical advance springs and weights and lock the advance plat in a fixed position. This is no different than what is required with any stand alone programmable ignition system. The possibility of phase shift issues can occure with high RPM applications but can be compensated for by repositioning the reluctor wheel or offseting the rotor position.

I am personally going to hook things up with both defaults set untill I get it running and then work on a Boost curve. I will simply run the distributor as is untill I get the Boost Retard Curve done and then look at locking out the distributor and building the Run Retard curve.

I talked with Jerry Woods today about proper locking out of the distributor and he told me he just finished installing and programming a 6AL-2. He said it was a great controller and easy to install and program. He was impressed with
the flexability and how easy it was compared to screwing with weights and springs.

Hope this is a help to everyone. I was lucky because I'm cheap and had done some horse trading to get my original 6AL and BTM so after selling them I only had about $80.00 extra out of pocket for the new unit. I really pleased with the potential I see with this unit. My only problem is I just noticed the is no motor in my car !!!!!!!

Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 02-15-2010, 02:39 PM
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Hey Cole! My car has a regular MSD units and it has twin plugs with twin distributors from a 964 along with Protomotive EFI system. It was already set up that way when I bought the car. You mentioned about needing to lock the distributors. Is your engine going to be a single or twin plug? What type of distributor are you using? Stock 930?

Does anyone know whether the twin distributor from a 964 has a mechanical advance like a stock 930? I don't see mine having any vacuum advance mechanism. I'm still learning about these things.
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Old 02-15-2010, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cole930 View Post
Hey Guys,

I've been working on this new MSD install and wanted to share what I've learned so far. First I had concerns with locking out the distributor, possible phase shift issues, as well as hoping I could talk to someone who has used one. So with all those issues addressed I thought I'd throw it out there.

Cole
OK, who stole Cole's motor?

David Ol' Boy, thanks for the update. You know I've been waiting anxiously. Ok, I'll be a lazy bastard and wait until you work out all the kinks, then just steal your glory and slam one into my rig. Until then, I'm happy with the MSD BTM as it is. Oh...by the way..."while I was in there" this weekend I took the time to pull the dizzy and grind out the adjustment slot to hopefully afford another few degrees of advance adjustment. I would like another 4 degrees to bring my total static timing to 12*. I think I ground enough off to do that. We'll see. Either way it's now at the max rotation, given that the vacuum advance hose connection barb on the dizzy won't allow it to turn past the turbo oil feed line now.
Just waiting on a special O'ring from our host (upper throttle body O'ring where the boost recirc manifold sits on it....or should I say what's left of my recirc manifold). Plans are to fire up the bicth next weekend, as it's supposed to be a balmy 50+ and sunny.
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Old 02-15-2010, 05:11 PM
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Hey Mark, so you slotted it.. great.

Here's a pic of mine after lengthening the slot fwiw.
Comparing it to a pic I took before grinding it it looks like I have the distributor turned about 1/16" farther now.



..think of it as lightening the distributor.
Old 02-15-2010, 06:15 PM
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Hey Mikie !!!!!

Great to hear from you. Hope the Red Beast is good and tucked in for the winter.

You need to understand I'm one of those tunnel vision Old Farts that's so die hard old school 930 I don't pay attention to anything else.

I don't know squat about 964 distributors other than there are 2, they are rubber banded together, and there are twelve plug wires. Sorry, there, I can't be of any help. What I do know is that your car was built by Promotive and that speaks volumes as they are one of the best tuners in the country. Consequently what you have would be very hard to improve upon.

I'm running a single plug stock Euro distributor. I don't do any track stuff so I haven't seen the expense justification to twin plug. I'm just a low buck bolt on guy. Try searching here you might find some help.


Mr. Mark,

I'm anxious to see how you like the changes, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Keep us posted.

Why didn't you just advance the distributor a tooth
and then dial back what you don't need.


Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 02-15-2010, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
Hey Mark, so you slotted it.. great.

Here's a pic of mine after lengthening the slot fwiw.
Comparing it to a pic I took before grinding it it looks like I have the distributor turned about 1/16" farther now.



..think of it as lightening the distributor.
Yep, that's about what I got, maybe a couple millimeters or so. I guess a person could grind out the entire end of the slot and open her up for even more adjustment, but the vacuum advance/retard can limits how much you can turn the distributor...as I think you found out as well.
I'm looking forward to the 1.0 gram weight reduction. Should shave off .0000000000000000000001 second from my lap time.
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Old 02-15-2010, 06:40 PM
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