Why AR and not AK? - Page 3

Jeff Higgins · 09-09-2009, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soukus

Maybe I go this route and pickup a bolt action .308 first. Still looking for one. Just haven't been able to catch a show yet. But my FFL had a couple of Howas in stock that felt pretty good.

Then you lose the single biggest advantage to the lever gun - the ability to keep topping it off without taking it out of action. With a pocket (or two) full of ammo, you can stuff a couple of more in the loading gate at any lull in activities, without taking your eyes off of the threat, purely by feel.

MotoSook · 09-09-2009, 07:11 AM

That was a consideration and I'm looking for a bolt action that has a drop down magazine, like a CZ.

Quote:

Quote de Soukus

Maybe I go this route and pickup a bolt action .308 first. Still looking for one. Just haven't been able to catch a show yet. But my FFL had a couple of Howas in stock that felt pretty good.

Then you lose the single biggest advantage to the lever gun - the ability to keep topping it off without taking it out of action. With a pocket (or two) full of ammo, you can stuff a couple of more in the loading gate at any lull in activities, without taking your eyes off of the threat, purely by feel.

Jeff Higgins · 09-09-2009, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soukus

That was a consideration and I'm looking for a bolt action that has a drop down magazine, like a CZ.

You still can't top it off as you go. This is the single biggest disadvantage to the detachable magazine - when it's empty, you must remove it and replace it with a loaded one. When they are all empty, you are reduced to weilding a club. It takes a great deal of time to reload the magazines before one can be replaced in the rifle. And if you are moving while you are emptying them, you need to go back and find them - unless you have the presence of mind to stash them in your pockets. Then, how many can you carry unless you have a belt or vest designed for such?

I think too many people confuse military weapons for civilian weapons. Situations where one will require them are vastly different. In the military, you will normally have all the gear - like the proper clothing for carrying several extra magazines, and your fellow soldiers to provide cover if you empty your rifle and/or magazines.

In a civilian SHTF scenario, you will likely have none of that. You will be on your own. A reliable lever gun, with several pockets full of ammo, will be far more useful. You can keep it "full" while on the move; it is essentially self-contained with nothing else to missplace or lose along the way. The only thing you leave behind is empty shells.

MotoSook · 09-09-2009, 07:44 AM

I do have other gear to choose from

. But for arguement sake, how much ammo can you easily stash in your pockets before it becomes cumbersome? Anymore so than fishing out a 30 round mag from a side bag or chest rig? In a SHTF situ I would guess that a well prep'd gunner will have several loaded mags ready and dropping a few empty ones in the heat of battle is not a major concern.

What's in you bug out bag?

Really I am not dogging the lever gun, but I kinda like the semi-auto with 30 rounds or even a drum if need be. If by the time I run out of loaded mags things are pretty bad. Probably worst off if I had had a lever gun while trying to load 300+ rounds...min that a SHTF needs in loaded 30 rd mags

MotoSook · 09-09-2009, 07:49 AM

Still is a 5.56 round at a disadvantage in urban combat when the enemy has a larger caliber? I say urban because the 5.56 lacks punch compared to a 7.62 and it's likely to be the case in civil unrest. One would want more penetrating punch no?

So back to the 7.62. But not in an AK?

legion · 09-09-2009, 07:55 AM

How do the 70 grain .223 bullets compare in weight to .30 cal?

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Why not both?

I have rifles in most of the "common" calibers, just in case in need to forage ammo.

.22LR
5.56 Nato
7.62x39
30-06
7.62x51

tabs · 09-09-2009, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soukus

Thanks for the warning on the wire stock.

So what I'm hearing is that the AKs are crap because of cheap commie manufacturing. The only good ones are going to run $1200 with a milled steel receiver. At that point guys just buy a nice AR. Too simple a conclusion?

If I find ARs clunky and cheap for what some sell for, I'll probably regret buying an AK. So what's another semi- that eats 7.62x39?

Or do I just buy as much 77 and 80 grain 5.56 as I can find. Thems are no cheap rounds. I would build a 6.8 SPC but ammo availability is a little questionable and I don't reload.

What is the problem...I said skip the Romanians..The Bulgarians, Russian, Chinese and Hungarians are better. The Romanians just have a rep for being not so good. As in cheap shtye.

The Arsenals are copies of the Bulgarian AK's. They use the same tooling. The only comment is that the Milled Receiver whether it is Chink, Russkie or Bulgarian is BETTER than Stamped>. It is stiffer and doesn't flex.

m21sniper · 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by idontknow

Bulgarian AK-74s are still being brought in and can be picked up for around $700 and up. The 5.45 stuff won't become popular until the 7.62x39 ammo or guns get expensive.

If i'm gonna spend $700.00 i'll just spend $800.00 and buy an AR.

I honestly just don't like AK style sights at all.

m21sniper · 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seahawk

First of all, the Bushmaster is a great gun. It never jammed, was stupid accurate and had fit and finish.

But I didn't like how it felt on my shoulder...it just felt wrong: trigger pull, weight, balance.

Preference in fire arms is so subjective, Snipe. The mini-14 is a better fit, for me.

I feel ya bro.

Mini-14's are great rifles too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soukus

Thanks for the warning on the wire stock.

So what I'm hearing is that the AKs are crap because of cheap commie manufacturing. The only good ones are going to run $1200 with a milled steel receiver. At that point guys just buy a nice AR. Too simple a conclusion?

If I find ARs clunky and cheap for what some sell for, I'll probably regret buying an AK. So what's another semi- that eats 7.62x39?

Or do I just buy as much 77 and 80 grain 5.56 as I can find. Thems are no cheap rounds. I would build a 6.8 SPC but ammo availability is a little questionable and I don't reload.

Try a Mini-30.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

You still can't top it off as you go. This is the single biggest disadvantage to the detachable magazine - when it's empty, you must remove it and replace it with a loaded one. When they are all empty, you are reduced to weilding a club. It takes a great deal of time to reload the magazines before one can be replaced in the rifle. And if you are moving while you are emptying them, you need to go back and find them - unless you have the presence of mind to stash them in your pockets. Then, how many can you carry unless you have a belt or vest designed for such?

I think too many people confuse military weapons for civilian weapons. Situations where one will require them are vastly different. In the military, you will normally have all the gear - like the proper clothing for carrying several extra magazines, and your fellow soldiers to provide cover if you empty your rifle and/or magazines.

In a civilian SHTF scenario, you will likely have none of that. You will be on your own. A reliable lever gun, with several pockets full of ammo, will be far more useful. You can keep it "full" while on the move; it is essentially self-contained with nothing else to missplace or lose along the way. The only thing you leave behind is empty shells.

I have all the gear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soukus

I do have other gear to choose from

. But for arguement sake, how much ammo can you easily stash in your pockets before it becomes cumbersome? Anymore so than fishing out a 30 round mag from a side bag or chest rig? In a SHTF situ I would guess that a well prep'd gunner will have several loaded mags ready and dropping a few empty ones in the heat of battle is not a major concern.

What's in you bug out bag?

Really I am not dogging the lever gun, but I kinda like the semi-auto with 30 rounds or even a drum if need be. If by the time I run out of loaded mags things are pretty bad. Probably worst off if I had had a lever gun while trying to load 300+ rounds...min that a SHTF needs in loaded 30 rd mags

I have 8x 30rd mags with 20rds each in them. I do not forsee myself running out of ammo in this lifetime with that many loaded mags....but Jeff's observations do have merit. The ability to quickly top off without having to drop the mag as you do during a tactical reload is quite handy.

You can do this with a shotgun too. If i was going to go the tube fed route, i'd get a 12 gauge semi as opposed to a center-fire lever action, but that's just me.

PS: My tac vest will hold 8x30rd mags and 10x 20rd mags. That's 440rd's, plus the mag in the weapon...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soukus

Still is a 5.56 round at a disadvantage in urban combat when the enemy has a larger caliber? I say urban because the 5.56 lacks punch compared to a 7.62 and it's likely to be the case in civil unrest. One would want more penetrating punch no?

So back to the 7.62. But not in an AK?

7.62x39 is probably not any better a penetrating round than M855 military semi-armor piercing ball ammo, which grows on trees.

Supposedly it will penetrate an engine block as long as the range is greater than about 50 meters. Inside that range, and the high velocity just causes it to grenade on impact....or so i hear. I have never actually shot an engine block at any range with M855 or any 5.56mm or 7.62mm rounds.

If you want good penetration, a good 12 gauge semi firing .50cal 3" magnum sabot slugs would probably be hard to beat.

Eric Coffey · 09-09-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billwagnon

I thought this was gonna be a hillbilly vs Eskimo thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soukus

Maybe I go this route and pickup a bolt action .308 first. Still looking for one. Just haven't been able to catch a show yet. But my FFL had a couple of Howas in stock that felt pretty good.

If you are considering the AR platform and/or a .308 bolt action, you might consider an AR in .308. Pretty nice compromise IMO, and plenty of quality versions out there (from mild to wild).

m21sniper · 09-09-2009, 05:32 PM

I so wish someone would make an AR in .220 swift. That would be a neat-o toy.

MotoSook · 05:47 PM

I don't need another AR. ..well maybe a couple more barrels for larger caliber, but then a solid AK with cheap ammo would satisfy the need for more punch.

I am considering a .308AR just because.

Tabs - the conclusion was the result of your post but a general though based on what I read here and on other forums. I'll look for a milled receiver example that's imported and see if it will satisfy the role as a all around beater with punch.

Quote:

Quote de billwagnon

I thought this was gonna be a hillbilly vs Eskimo thread.

Quote de Soukus

Maybe I go this route and pickup a bolt action .308 first. Still looking for one. Just haven't been able to catch a show yet. But my FFL had a couple of Howas in stock that felt pretty good.

If you are considering the AR platform and/or a .308 bolt action, you might consider an AR in .308. Pretty nice compromise IMO, and plenty of quality versions out there (from mild to wild).

MotoSook · 09-09-2009, 06:01 PM

Snipe - the reviews for a mini-30 aren't very favorable. Twice the cost of an AK, harder to fine mags and not as reliable as an AK. I admit I like the idea of a mini-30 but it doesn't sound like a winner.

MotoSook · 09-09-2009, 06:03 PM

So are all BUL, CHN and RUS made with milled still recivers?

Quote:

Quote de Soukus

Thanks for the warning on the wire stock.

So what I'm hearing is that the AKs are crap because of cheap commie manufacturing. The only good ones are going to run $1200 with a milled steel receiver. At that point guys just buy a nice AR. Too simple a conclusion?

If I find ARs clunky and cheap for what some sell for, I'll probably regret buying an AK. So what's another semi- that eats 7.62x39?

Or do I just buy as much 77 and 80 grain 5.56 as I can find. Thems are no cheap rounds. I would build a 6.8 SPC but ammo availability is a little questionable and I don't reload.

What is the problem...I said skip the Romanians..The Bulgarians, Russian, Chinese and Hungarians are better. The Romanians just have a rep for being not so good. As in cheap shtye.

The Arsenals are copies of the Bulgarian AK's. They use the same tooling. The only comment is that the Milled Receiver whether it is Chink, Russkie or Bulgarian is BETTER than Stamped>. It is stiffer and doesn't flex.

MotoSook · 06:11 PM

Anything wrong with this? I assume it has a milled reciever:

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/AKAGUNUF.aspx

and why are Saigas cheaper?

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soukus

Anything wrong with this? I assume it has a milled reciever:

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/AKAGUNUF.aspx

and why are Saigas cheaper?

That definitely has a stamped receiver.

MotoSook · 09-09-2009, 06:23 PM

Ok so what are some milled receiver types?

Don't they sell stripped milled receivers?

Jeff Higgins · 09-10-2009, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m21sniper

I so wish someone would make an AR in .220 swift. That would be a neat-o toy.

Not really...

I'm a huge fan of the old Swift. I've owned a rifle of one description or another in that caliber for over 30 years. The one downside to it is that it absolutely will not survive any sort of rapid fire or, for that matter, even any sort of sustained fire. It builds barrel heat very, very quickly, and then begins to erode the throat at an exceedingly rapid rate. While certainly not nearly as bad as its reputation, that reputation is not without some foundation.

My current Swift is built on a Ruger #1 action. It wears a 28" Lilja stainless barrel, 1:12" twist. I like the single shot approach to the Swift, as it reminds me to slow down. A shot every few minutes is about as hard as you want to push one of these. They simply will not tolerate any sort of sustained fire. In an autoloader, I would venture to guess a guy could ruin a barrel with one 20 round magazine, if he tried to empty that mag as quickly as possible. Not a good marriage of cartridge/weapon.

m21sniper · 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soukus

Snipe - the reviews for a mini-30 aren't very favorable. Twice the cost of an AK, harder to fine mags and not as reliable as an AK. I admit I like the idea of a mini-30 but it doesn't sound like a winner.

Do they fetch that much? Must be a collectors thing. I didn't realize they had that kind of value. Never heard of reliability problems with them, but then again i'm not exactly a student of them either.

How about an M1A( M-14)? Pricey, but damn nice.