JoePa Shocking........

[Lothar]

So, how do you feel about an airline that allows careless maintenance to compromise safety, resulting in a plane crash. Individuals make those decisions and should be held accountable. The corporation is accountable for the loss and damages. If individuals act with negligence, they can be held accountable.

However, I have never seen an airline completely shut down and all its employees sent home because of a plane crash. The airline might get grounded until they can demonstrate safe operations, but that's not punitive.

I think sanctions should be reserved for the guilty. If a corporation cleans house and the offending parties are no longer present, what is the purpose of the sanctions? Damages and punitive damages paid by a corporation make sense. Who else would pay? But the "throw the baby out with the bath water" approach jettisons the best of what is left after the worst has already been removed.

The alternative is to punish the guilty and remove them from the organization. Replace them with people of character and encourage the rebuilding of the program in a way that restores its integrity. For those responsible, there should be no leniency. They must be held accountable for their actions.

[Linderpat]

Originally Posted by Lothar

So, how do you feel about an airline that allows careless maintenance to compromise safety, resulting in a plane crash. Individuals make those decisions and should be held accountable. The corporation is accountable for the loss and damages. If individuals act with negligence, they can be held accountable.

However, I have never seen an airline completely shut down and all its employees sent home because of a plane crash. The airline might get grounded until they can demonstrate safe operations, but that's not punitive.

I think sanctions should be reserved for the guilty. If a corporation cleans house and the offending parties are no longer present, what is the purpose of the sanctions? Damages and punitive damages paid by a corporation make sense. Who else would pay? But the "throw the baby out with the bath water" approach jettisons the best of what is left after the worst has already been removed.

The alternative is to punish the guilty and remove them from the organization. Replace them with people of character and encourage the rebuilding of the program in a way that restores its integrity. For those responsible, there should be no leniency. They must be held accountable for their actions.

this is the most reasoned line of responses I've seen across the boards on this subject. Bullseye.

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by Lothar

Gladly. Granted, the NCAA is not subject to the same standards as out criminal justice system. The NCAA and member schools can make their own agreements as to what authority exists to levy penalties.

However, my point was that we live in a country that was founded on the notion that individuals are held accountable for their actions, or inaction, in this case. That, unfortunately, is giving way to more emphasis on "the collective". So now, large groups are punished for the actions of a few to "make an example of them".

I guess punishing "Penn State" has more impact than punishing an AD, chancellor, University President, etc. However, the notion that punishment should be levied because crimes were committed to benefit the program is a twisted one, when many in the program had no idea that it was being done on their behalf.

For example, if some crazed lunatic assassinates a candidate for office because he wants another candidate to win an election, this does not make the other candidate responsible for the crime and warrants no punishment other than for the lunatic that acted as an individual.

I understand your position, but that can't be applied in every example. In the case of PS, the president of the university and key staff, the athletic dept. and others in power or non-restrained freedom to report the incident; they did nothing or not enough to stop the individual and thus condoned the illegal activity. In so doing, they, in effect for over 20 years, systematically incorporated this into the school's standard operating procedures. Same as if they were running a legal front (higher education) for illicit money-laundering or harvesting organs from human cadavers.

However, the payoff was not in illicit profits but instead millions from business-as-usual ticket sales, ad endorsements, TV profit sharing, alumni support, adulation and awards from students, parents, athletes, media and peers..... and their own job security.

A situation where no one should question where the buck stops. I already posted a message with the main players. They were in charge of the enterprise. Let's hope they are brought to justice.

Sherwood

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by Lothar

So, how do you feel about an airline that allows careless maintenance to compromise safety, resulting in a plane crash. Individuals make those decisions and should be held accountable. The corporation is accountable for the loss and damages. If individuals act with negligence, they can be held accountable.

However, I have never seen an airline completely shut down and all its employees sent home because of a plane crash. The airline might get grounded until they can demonstrate safe operations, but that's not punitive.

I think sanctions should be reserved for the guilty. If a corporation cleans house and the offending parties are no longer present, what is the purpose of the sanctions? Damages and punitive damages paid by a corporation make sense. Who else would pay? But the "throw the baby out with the bath water" approach jettisons the best of what is left after the worst has already been removed.

The alternative is to punish the guilty and remove them from the organization. Replace them with people of character and encourage the rebuilding of the program in a way that restores its integrity. For those responsible, there should be no leniency. They must be held accountable for their actions.

If there was a cover-up that had continued for 20 years to hide the fact that every manager and boss was in on the careless maintenance, you bet the company would be shut down. Every employee would be out of a job because all the people in charge were HIDING the fact that they were raping the system. Every manager and even the janitors saw the problem but knew they would be fired it they pointed out the problem to the CEO, yep shut down the company. It would happen.

[nostatic]

So evidently SMU's illegal booster activity (paying $$$) is worse than molesting kids. Good to know where the NCAA's priorities lie...

Worse Punishment: Penn State Sanctions Or SMU Death Penalty? - Forbes

[Lothar]

So why can't you fire the president, AD, janitor, key staff, etc? If they acted in a criminal manner, they should be charged. If they violated some other non-criminal standard, remove them.

911pcars, you said, "However, the payoff was not in illicit profits but instead millions from business-as-usual ticket sales, ad endorsements, TV profit sharing, alumni support, adulation and awards from students, parents, athletes, media and peers..... and their own job security."

This contradicts reason. How does an ongoing pattern of sexual assault generate ticket sales, TV profits, endorsements? Why would the alumni provide additional support because that was going on in the background? They certainly weren't going to get an award for what was happening. I don't see how you can make the case that they profited from Jerry Sandusky's reprehensible behavior.

Had the actions of Jerry Sandusky been brought to the attention of the proper authorities in a timely manner, people would still buy tickets, PSU would still get TV revenue and so on. In fact, most smart people would realize that there are bad apples everywhere and Penn State would have been applauded for responding swiftly and decisively. Penn State would have been a victim of Jerry Sandusky, had they acted promptly to report his transgressions.

By acting inappropriately, they have tarnished their own reputation and standing in the community.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Lothar

So why can't you fire the president, AD, janitor, key staff, etc? If they acted in a criminal manner, they should be charged. If they violated some other non-criminal standard, remove them.

911pcars, you said, "However, the payoff was not in illicit profits but instead millions from business-as-usual ticket sales, ad endorsements, TV profit sharing, alumni support, adulation and awards from students, parents, athletes, media and peers..... and their own job security."

This contradicts reason. How does an ongoing pattern of sexual assault generate ticket sales, TV profits, endorsements? Why would the alumni provide additional support because that was going on in the background? They certainly weren't going to get an award for what was happening. I don't see how you can make the case that they profited from Jerry Sandusky's reprehensible behavior.

Had the actions of Jerry Sandusky been brought to the attention of the proper authorities in a timely manner, people would still buy tickets, PSU would still get TV revenue and so on. In fact, most smart people would realize that there are bad apples everywhere and Penn State would have been applauded for responding swiftly and decisively. Penn State would have been a victim of Jerry Sandusky, had they acted promptly to report his transgressions.

By acting inappropriately, they have tarnished their own reputation and standing in the community.

Actually it does not contradict reason, the key there was "business-as-usual ".

I agree with you that had they brought this to light when they 1st discovered it they certainly could have put themselves and the institution into the role of hero. All it needed was the correct presentation, "evil will not be tolerated at any cost....".

But they could not guarantee or were just too scared that by acting appropriately, they would not have tarnished their own reputation and standing in the community.

They swept it under the rug allowing them to continue to generate ticket sales, TV profits, endorsements and protect their own personal legacies, business-as-usual.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Lothar

So why can't you fire the president, AD, janitor, key staff, etc? If they acted in a criminal manner, they should be charged. If they violated some other non-criminal standard, remove them.

What a hump.

Paterno set the tone in order to protect his reputation: he was on track to get the most victories by a Division I football coach in 1998. He was protecting the football program and himself from scrutiny and potentially damaging testimony that would prevent that from happening.

So your hero sat on his hands and allowed another generation of boys to be raped.

The janitor, McQueary, etc. are not the problem, Paterno was, YOU are.

This is about Penn State's football program. The sanctions didn't go nearly far enough...you and buddies will still get to cheer your team on this fall. I would have made PS go silent for at least a year so you and other like you would get the point.

Blame the janitor.

Perfect.

[nostatic]

I still find it hard to believe that SMU got the death penalty and PSU didn't.

Well, actually I don't find it hard to believe...

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by Lothar

So why can't you fire the president, AD, janitor, key staff, etc? If they acted in a criminal manner, they should be charged. If they violated some other non-criminal standard, remove them.

AFAIK, parting company with the U has been accomplished. Criminal and civil liabilities to follow.

911pcars, you said, "However, the payoff was not in illicit profits but instead millions from business-as-usual ticket sales, ad endorsements, TV profit sharing, alumni support, adulation and awards from students, parents, athletes, media and peers..... and their own job security."

This contradicts reason. How does an ongoing pattern of sexual assault generate ticket sales, TV profits, endorsements? Why would the alumni provide additional support because that was going on in the background? They certainly weren't going to get an award for what was happening. I don't see how you can make the case that they profited from Jerry Sandusky's reprehensible behavior.

Had the actions of Jerry Sandusky been brought to the attention of the proper authorities in a timely manner, people would still buy tickets, PSU would still get TV revenue and so on. In fact, most smart people would realize that there are bad apples everywhere and Penn State would have been applauded for responding swiftly and decisively. Penn State would have been a victim of Jerry Sandusky, had they acted promptly to report his transgressions.

AFAIK, Sandusky's program was in force for some time before discovered in 2001 (the shower scene) and possibly known prior to that by Paterno and others. Prosecuters estimated abuse as far back as 1995 - a long time. At that juncture, the perps decided that exposure would jeopardize the program, but a cover up would allow the successful football enterprise to continue.

By acting inappropriately, they have tarnished their own reputation and standing in the community.

Yes. Evidently, they were either all in denial or felt untouchable (unintended pun).

[MRM]

Entire airlines get grounded after fatal accidents and don't get clearance to fly again until after they prove they've cleaned house and are now safe. And then they often go out of business.

We haven't had a fatal US commercial air crash in something like the past decade.

We haven't had an NCAA Division I sports scandal in something like the past ten day. Hours? Minutes?

The program should have been shut down and Paterno's statue left where it was, but they should have welded a huge brass plaque to it tellin everyone that this was the man who aided, abeted and covered up the rape of young boys by his senior assistant for more than ten years while he was paid millions of dollars and was the most powerful man on campus. And when his and his assistant's crimes, an those of the other university administration officials came to light, society rose up and demanded an accounting of those who were responsible and the institutions they created to shelter their crimes. And that they are the reason why Penn State is no longer allowed to have a football team.

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by MRM

The program should have been shut down and Paterno's statue left where it was, but they should have welded a huge brass plaque to it tellin everyone that this was the man who aided, abeted and covered up the rape of young boys by his senior assistant for more than ten years while he was paid millions of dollars and was the most powerful man on campus. And when his and his assistant's crimes, an those of the other university administration officials came to light, society rose up and demanded an accounting of those who were responsible and the institutions they created to shelter their crimes. And that they are the reason why Penn State is no longer allowed to have a football team.

Although I'm OK with the announced actions against Pedophile State U., I cannot disagree with your prescription.

[McLovin]

Has there ever been an instance where an airline had discovered that a pilot was intentionally crashing airplanes, and the airline executives (all the way up to the CEO) covered it up so as to allow him to keep crashing planes year after year?

[McLovin]

Because there is a huge difference between acts of negligence, and the willful coverup of crimes which serves to knowingly allow the crimes to continue for years and years.

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

What a hump.

Paterno set the tone in order to protect his reputation: he was on track to get the most victories by a Division I football coach in 1998. He was protecting the football program and himself from scrutiny and potentially damaging testimony that would prevent that from happening.

So your hero sat on his hands and allowed another generation of boys to be raped.

The janitor, McQueary, etc. are not the problem, Paterno was, YOU are.

This is about Penn State's football program. The sanctions didn't go nearly far enough...you and buddies will still get to cheer your team on this fall. I would have made PS go silent for at least a year so you and other like you would get the point.

Blame the janitor.

Perfect.

Paul,

The only reason I didn't mention Paterno is because he's dead. What else do you want to do to him?

Now how am I the problem for not wanting to punish people that had no knowledge and nothing to do with the situation? I'm ready to blame everyone that witnessed the crime and everyone that had a reasonable vantage from which to suggest that someone look into Sandusky.

Paterno's not my hero. They can take down the statue if they want. I don't care. I agree that he did not take sufficient action when he became aware of Jerry's activities and were he still alive, I would expect him to be held accountable.

Now how did I blame the janitor? That's a ridiculous statement. I think I mentioned the janitor after the president and AD.

You are really having a knee-jerk reaction to this and seem to want to take it out on everyone.

[stomachmonkey]

I'm unclear on who is being punished.

The players? They have the option to switch schools without penalty, they get to play day one, they get to keep their scholarships. They still have their regular season. Bowl games are no guarantee for any team during any season.

The coaching staff? They still have their regular season. Bowl games are no guarantee for any team during any season.


The students? They still have their regular season. Bowl games are no guarantee for any team during any season.

Now I've heard it will hurt local businesses. How? They still have the regular season. I think attendance would be hurt by people not wanting to support an institution that let these heinous acts occur more so than because they were sanctioned.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

The students? They still have their regular season. Bowl games are no guarantee for any team during any season.

Or they could go to class and participate in intramural sports.

Naw, that's crazy talk. Clearly the students should sue the NCAA for ruining their "college education."

[Rikao4]

you jest..
but lets wait few minutes..


Rika

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Lothar

You are really having a knee-jerk reaction to this and seem to want to take it out on everyone.

You're right, it's me. I'd like to publicly apologize for my reaction to the rape of young men for over 14 years when it could have been prevented.

You are, Penn State.

Thank God I am not.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by Lothar

So, how do you feel about an airline that allows careless maintenance to compromise safety, resulting in a plane crash. Individuals make those decisions and should be held accountable. The corporation is accountable for the loss and damages. If individuals act with negligence, they can be held accountable.

However, I have never seen an airline completely shut down and all its employees sent home because of a plane crash. The airline might get grounded until they can demonstrate safe operations, but that's not punitive.

I think sanctions should be reserved for the guilty. If a corporation cleans house and the offending parties are no longer present, what is the purpose of the sanctions? Damages and punitive damages paid by a corporation make sense. Who else would pay? But the "throw the baby out with the bath water" approach jettisons the best of what is left after the worst has already been removed.

The alternative is to punish the guilty and remove them from the organization. Replace them with people of character and encourage the rebuilding of the program in a way that restores its integrity. For those responsible, there should be no leniency. They must be held accountable for their actions.

First and foremost, the 14 years of criminal activity that was known by the staff to be occurring should never have happened. It is beyond comprehension that this occurred. Why would the University cover this up? Penn State did it for selfish reasons with no consideration for the suffering of innocent children and to protect itself from a real or perceived threat to its reputation. So they knowingly let it go on. That is a form of GROSS negligence, it should have never even been considered by the university to continue, yet it did. The University CHOSE to allow this to continue. That says something about the University. SO putative damages are meant to punish the offender, and one of those offenders was Penn State. Is $60 Million enough, who knows, but it sure sounds like punishment? What the NCAA is saying by doing this is Penn State's actions are reprehensible and should be punished. It also sends a message to any other corrupt folks that this is not going to be tolerated so don't even think of letting something like this even cross your mind.

Did Penn State punish its own corruption? Did it even recommend a punishment or did it just hope for the best? Oh, I bet JOE PA's estate is gonna take a huge hit, at least in legal bills.