JoePa Shocking........

[BeyGon]

Originally Posted by nostatic

I still find it hard to believe that SMU got the death penalty and PSU didn't.

Well, actually I don't find it hard to believe...

I don't think the penalty is much worse than what USC got. I still say it should have been at least 10 years, or what the heck, they let it go 14 years, make the penalty 14 years.

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

You're right, it's me. I'd like to publicly apologize for my reaction to the rape of young men for over 14 years when it could have been prevented.

You are, Penn State.

Thank God I am not.

By all means, be outraged. Demand justice. Individuals choose a path of action or inaction. When that violates the rights of another, there should be a punishment. Maybe I'm not being clear here.

I have no problem with people in authority and people who witnessed Jerry Sandusky's despicable actions being punished. They should be punished to the full extent permitted by law and under the authority of the NCAA as agreed to by its members. This includes anyone that participated in a cover-up in order to shield themselves or PSU.

I did not go to school at PSU. I am not a Penn State fan. I have been to State College, PA and I have walked around campus. It is a large campus, augmented by satellite campuses around the state. The total number of undergrads across all campuses must number in excess of 60K. Because of that, I cannot see the logic in wanting to "destroy Penn State" because of the actions of a few.

I want to see the system cleaned up in the aftermath of this tragedy and made into an example of what should be. It simply makes no sense to me to punish the people who are left after the swamp has been drained if they had no knowledge of what was happening. Standing as a microcosm of the rest of the world, PSU is made up of individuals. Everyone deserves to be judged as an individual, not thrown under the bus because of where they work or where they go to school.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Lothar

By all means, be outraged. Demand justice. Individuals choose a path of action or inaction. When that violates the rights of another, there should be a punishment. Maybe I'm not being clear here.

I have no problem with people in authority and people who witnessed Jerry Sandusky's despicable actions being punished. They should be punished to the full extent permitted by law and under the authority of the NCAA as agreed to by its members. This includes anyone that participated in a cover-up in order to shield themselves or PSU.

I did not go to school at PSU. I am not a Penn State fan. I have been to State College, PA and I have walked around campus. It is a large campus, augmented by satellite campuses around the state. The total number of undergrads across all campuses must number in excess of 60K. Because of that, I cannot see the logic in wanting to "destroy Penn State" because of the actions of a few.

I want to see the system cleaned up in the aftermath of this tragedy and made into an example of what should be. It simply makes no sense to me to punish the people who are left after the swamp has been drained if they had no knowledge of what was happening. Standing as a microcosm of the rest of the world, PSU is made up of individuals. Everyone deserves to be judged as an individual, not thrown under the bus because of where they work or where they go to school.

So here's what happens when you "punish" only the guilty individual.

The institution, corporation, whatever, hires individuals whose primary purpose is to be the fall guy. They are paid well to take the hit if it comes to it. They are taken care of afterwards. Of course most of these people will not agree to engage in activity that will likely result in jail time although I suspect there may be a few who you can make it worth their while to take the risk.

The institution, corporation, whatever, goes on, business-as-usual.

And no, I'm not making it up, I've seen it first hand, several times.

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

So here's what happens when you "punish" only the guilty individual.

The institution, corporation, whatever, hires individuals whose primary purpose is to be the fall guy. They are paid well to take the hit if it comes to it. They are taken care of afterwards. Of course most of these people will not agree to engage in activity that will likely result in jail time although I suspect there may be a few who you can make it worth their while to take the risk.

The institution, corporation, whatever, goes on, business-as-usual.

And no, I'm not making it up, I've seen it first hand, several times.

And of course, that justifies punishing the innocent.

[herr_oberst]

Am I the only one who thinks that the NCAA, especially when it comes to CFB, and more and more, college hoops, is a house of cards? The business model needs a supply of eager kids who will do anything to chase a very lucrative dream. At the very least, these kids sign up to work unbelievably hard and sacrifice plenty of their own time during their formative years (for free!) for the sustainability of a billion-dollar organization. (At the other end of the spectrum, well, good God, just how hard would it have been for Sandusky to shut his victims up? A well-timed threat or promise regarding a young boys' future and someone with his authority can and surely did make free with impudence.)

With that in mind, would a powerhouse like PSU have information in hand regarding operations that could severely damage or destroy the NCAA? Maybe. It sure seemed to me that in this day and age of litigation for the most minor infraction in our tender lives, the powers that be at Penn State capitulated mighty quickly to the demands of the Association. Paterno got thrown under the bus, sure, sacrifices needed to be made, but PSU and the NCAA will weather this. 10 years from now, Penn State may well regard this whole sordid incident as a blip in the road.

BTW, no fan of Paterno since the first time I saw him coach from the booth. (without an injury that would have prevented him from being on the field) In my mind, a victory belongs to the coach on the field, not a doddering old figurehasbeen.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Lothar

And of course, that justifies punishing the innocent.

I posed a question earlier that you have failed to or chosen not to answer.

How exactly are the players, coaches, students, local businesses being punished?

What do they lose and why?

[Lothar]

I don't know how you can say that the sanctions were not designed to damage the football program. The $60M in penalties is not going to victims, who are still free to file a civil suit against the university. The sanctions clearly limit future revenues, even if not a single person associated with a cover up is employed by PSU.

Players transferring to another school will not likely be a real benefit or be compensating unless there is an acute need elsewhere.

It is absurd to think that the everyone associated with the football program and the university in general will not feel some effect.

[VaSteve]

This sends a clear message that "hero worship" will not be tolerate. If Paterno of all people can be knocked.off his peg this knocks down everyone that put and kept.him there.

Anyone seeking an education isnt punished. I'm sure its still a.fine school. Priorities were out of whack.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Lothar

I don't know how you can say that the sanctions were not designed to damage the football program. The $60M in penalties is not going to victims, who are still free to file a civil suit against the university. The sanctions clearly limit future revenues, even if not a single person associated with a cover up is employed by PSU.

Players transferring to another school will not likely be a real benefit or be compensating unless there is an acute need elsewhere.

It is absurd to think that the everyone associated with the football program and the university in general will not feel some effect.

Again, they play their season, if they play well the only negative is no Bowl game.

Standout players will still get drafted. Their performance still counts.

Standout Coaches will still have job offers. Their performance still counts.

Students, no impact on them.

The University's finances?

The $60 million fine levied on Penn State by the NCAA doesn’t look so big next to the scale of the athletic department’s finances.

Penn State plans to pay the fine, part of sanctions announced Monday over the child sexual abuse scandal, in five annual installments of $12 million.

The Penn State athletic department had more than $116 million in revenue to more than $84 million in expenses for the 2010-11 school year, according to data reported by the school to the U.S. Department of Education. The expenses don’t include debt service or capital expenditures.

Penn State won’t be able to save money by making cuts in other sports. The NCAA specifically prohibited that as part of the punishment.

Instead of simply cutting costs, the athletic department can make up for any shortfalls in another way: raising money.

.......The Nittany Lion Club took in more than $82 million for the 2011 fiscal year, according to its annual report. That includes $34 million in special gifts for facilities. Its annual fund brought in $17 million, and donations for suites and club seats at Beaver Stadium totaled $12 million.

Penn State $60 million fine, in 5 payments, not so big compared to athletic department budget - The Washington Post

Seems to reinforce what we already know, college sports can be a significant cash cow, read motivator for inappropriate conduct.

Will PSU feel this, yes. But it's looking more like a migraine vs a decapitation.

I don't see share your concern.

[nostatic]

OMG - the football team at my college won't be very good? My education is ruined, and the value of my diploma just went down!

I'll sue!!!

priorities misplaced? check!

[911pcars]

List of US universities without a football program:
List of defunct college football teams - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List isn't complete: Son's alma mater, UC Santa Cruz Banana Slugs not listed.

Required for higher ed? No.

Sherwood

[intakexhaust]

Love watching college football, more so than the NFL... kids playin' their hearts out and the fan mania. Regardless, this ordeal is much larger then some game and business. The problem of these perps continues everyday so thats why I'm sticking to my older post. Enough from me.

Originally Posted by intakexhaust

The penalty and punishment is far from harsh enough! This sickness will continue. So, let it be known to ALL victims the innocent, sideliners to the guilty and predators now and in the future that it happened and continues to exist everywhere.

The example punishment to Penn State is nothing. In a few decades, most of this will be forgotten by the majority. Need something like a lifetime ban for Penn State and the entire participation football program. With a football program banned, Penn State would be on the pedestal as a forever example as the discrace of human violation and only then would possibly be considered a great institution. The new leadership SHOULD voluntarily make this choice as a healing and setting a better example. But of course, they won't. Those at the top (past and current) running Penn State are just scum, deceitful, egotistic money grabbers. I'll bet many, who were in the know are praying there names won't come up.


(Sorry for those players and careers, but maybe they could work thru some special recruitment for transfer or something at the NCAA expense.) This is the only way to DRILL it home and as a constant reminder to all. C'mon, be real here. High society perps protect themselves and work together with the blackmail game. This problem is throughout the country. I've read or heard on the news dozens of cases in the Chicago area student / coach / teacher inappropriate behaviour in just the last few years. Teachers records are expunged and transfer around. Union protection, etc. Complete joke how they operate.

Also, I'm going to go so far out and guess in the Catholic archdiocese, 5% are molestors or have other perp sexual problems. Ancient problem. They have them all over Chicago and in the suburban churches. Cover-ups that only in the last 20 years are finally in the news. The most trusted and sacred place and peace of mind for many families has been violated... and the church continues to make their own policies. Absurd. This has nothing to do with freedom of religion but the government needs to tax them all, over-rule and police any organized church. Rome with its billions is whacked as bad. Then you have the Catholic pius Mexicans. The stories from down there are over the top. Sick, sick, sick. Done with my commentary.

[9dreizig]

One simple question.. Isn't everyone involved either a)dead b) awaiting trail c) in jail or d) no longer at the university ?? If the answer is yes, then why punish the U ? if no,, punish away

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by 9dreizig

One simple question.. Isn't everyone involved either a)dead b) awaiting trail c) in jail or d) no longer at the university ?? If the answer is yes, then why punish the U ? if no,, punish away

Pedophile State profited for 14 years because of the coverup. They need to feel some pain.

[widgeon13]

Everyone that they can prove guilty may be out but that doesn't mean there aren't more POS in the deadwood. It was a conspiracy.

I'm positive there are more guilty but being the cowards they are don't expect them to come forward.

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

Everyone that they can prove guilty may be out but that doesn't mean there aren't more POS in the deadwood. It was a conspiracy.

I'm positive there are more guilty but being the cowards they are don't expect them to come forward.

The larger the conspiracy, the more likely and sooner it will be exposed. The fact that 14 years went by tells me that there were not a lot of people that knew about Jerry's behavior and chose to cover it up.

[widgeon13]

On the contrary, the fact that it went so high (highest level of the org) tells me it was well known but not mentioned for fear of reprisal.

Unfortunately, we will probably never know.

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

On the contrary, the fact that it went so high (highest level of the org) tells me it was well known but not mentioned for fear of reprisal.

Unfortunately, we will probably never know.

I did not say anything about how high up. By larger, I meant the number of people that need to keep a secret and not have their conscience get to them. If PSU's board is afraid to clean house far up the chain, they will do the institution a disservice.

The rationale for termination does not need to be limited to direct knowledge. Some should leave based on their failure to hire people of sufficient moral character. The university should set a high standard in this regard, given they are all charged with shaping and influencing young people.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by 9dreizig

One simple question.. Isn't everyone involved either a)dead b) awaiting trail c) in jail or d) no longer at the university ?? If the answer is yes, then why punish the U ? if no,, punish away

Why punish the U?

The U is not being punished, the sports program of the U is being punished. If many segments of the U that are not part of that sports program are hurt by the sanctions, that is because the U chose to wed itself so closely with said program. Every department, student, employee or local business that is negatively impacted by the sanctions are collateral damage from the NCAA actions, not the target. The sports program is not essential to a U but if they choose to have one, they must follow the regulations set by the NCAA and the more the U integrates that program into its daily workings, the greater will be the impact of any NCAA regulations. If the sports program is essential to a U, then a decision has been made to tie the future of the U to the success or failure of a program that can be destroyed, overnight, by an authority outside the U's control--the NCAA. In short, the U has abdicated its sole position of power over its future. If that's the decision of the U, then it is incumbent upon the U to oversee and regulate the program itself so as not to waken the sleeping NCAA giant.

Did the NCAA realize their actions would also negatively affect the workings of the entire U? Was the NCAA aware of the collateral damage to innocent individuals? Of course. The U is responsible for the ethical/moral operation of its sports programs and the only way to force the U to take responsibility for their failure is for the NCAA to use its (NCAA)constitutional powers to sanction the program. If the U has wrapped itself so tightly around the program that innocents will be harmed from sanctions, that was the choice of the U. Those innocents who may be harmed should look to the party responsible for their fate--the U, not the NCAA.

The sanctions imposed by the NCAA are a punishment for failure of the U to live up to its responsibilities. Like all punishment, it serves two purposes--to correct behavior and to deter future misbehavior. When dealing with groups, be they students in a classroom, business organizations, or university sports associations, the deterrence aspect of punishment is much more important than the correction of a violator's behavior. In these circumstances, the punishment is designed primarily for the audience, not the violator. This does not mean the punishment must be more severe. It means the punishment must be fitting, fair, and exemplary of a violation of standards set by the organization. If the NCAA did not punish the U because innocents would be harmed, what message would that send to the "audience" of other big-money sports schools? How long before the NCAA became nothing more than an Old Boys organization with level 1A schools doing what they will with no fear of consequences?

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

Why punish the U?

The U is not being punished, the sports program of the U is being punished. If many segments of the U that are not part of that sports program are hurt by the sanctions, that is because the U chose to wed itself so closely with said program. Every department, student, employee or local business that is negatively impacted by the sanctions are collateral damage from the NCAA actions, not the target. The sports program is not essential to a U but if they choose to have one, they must follow the regulations set by the NCAA and the more the U integrates that program into its daily workings, the greater will be the impact of any NCAA regulations. If the sports program is essential to a U, then a decision has been made to tie the future of the U to the success or failure of a program that can be destroyed, overnight, by an authority outside the U's control--the NCAA. In short, the U has abdicated its sole position of power over its future. If that's the decision of the U, then it is incumbent upon the U to oversee and regulate the program itself so as not to waken the sleeping NCAA giant.

Did the NCAA realize their actions would also negatively affect the workings of the entire U? Was the NCAA aware of the collateral damage to innocent individuals? Of course. The U is responsible for the ethical/moral operation of its sports programs and the only way to force the U to take responsibility for their failure is for the NCAA to use its (NCAA)constitutional powers to sanction the program. If the U has wrapped itself so tightly around the program that innocents will be harmed from sanctions, that was the choice of the U. Those innocents who may be harmed should look to the party responsible for their fate--the U, not the NCAA.

The sanctions imposed by the NCAA are a punishment for failure of the U to live up to its responsibilities. Like all punishment, it serves two purposes--to correct behavior and to deter future misbehavior. When dealing with groups, be they students in a classroom, business organizations, or university sports associations, the deterrence aspect of punishment is much more important than the correction of a violator's behavior. In these circumstances, the punishment is designed primarily for the audience, not the violator. This does not mean the punishment must be more severe. It means the punishment must be fitting, fair, and exemplary of a violation of standards set by the organization. If the NCAA did not punish the U because innocents would be harmed, what message would that send to the "audience" of other big-money sports schools? How long before the NCAA became nothing more than an Old Boys organization with level 1A schools doing what they will with no fear of consequences?