Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog Tech Info Tech Forums
 
  Search our site:    
 Cart  | Project List | Order Status | Help    
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Free Exams All November!
 
McLovin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: McLovin's Gynocological Clinic
Posts: 6,713
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveE View Post
P Paterno should have called the police
Thank you. That wasn't so hard, was it?
Old 11-08-2011, 07:32 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #41 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bellwood, PA
Posts: 2,021
Garage
He went up the chain of command instead. People are reacting as though he tried to cover it up.
__________________
97 2.5 Boxster
78 911SC 9118300015
65 911 301368
65 912 450355
'76 BMW 2002 (SCCA ITB racer)
Old 11-08-2011, 07:42 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #42 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Superman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Auburn, WA. USA
Posts: 18,649
Again, I agree with much of what you are asserting, McLovin. It is indeed tragic. And it seems clear that some people dropped some balls.

And yet, I am growing confidence in my belief that you are rushing hastily to a judgment you have insufficient evidence to form. You want to BLAME and your favorite target seems to be Paterno. Either you adopted the sports-opinion-writer's conclusion hook line and sinker, or your and he have similar tendencies to blame blame blame and not worry about the facts. You don't know that Paterno didn't contact the prosecutor. You don't know that Paterno didn't pressure his athletic department to act more aggressively. It as the Athletic Director and the Prosecutor who shouldered the full weight of the responsibility to deal with this, and Paterno may have done all he could to urge them to action. You don't know that Paterno didn't ask for Sandusky's resignation in 1999 when he became aware of Sandusky's disgusting behavior. Everyone reports his resignation as odd. I personally, knowing Paterno's behavior pattern, strongly suspect Sandusky's resignation was Paterno's decision. You don't know that Paterno didn't go ballistic when he heard the Sandusky have even BEEN IN the locker room. You don't know that Paterno hadn't banned him from that facility. You don't know that the Athletic Director wasn't the one who continued to offer Sandusky access to the university's facilities.

And yet, you're making the conclusion that this is all Paterno's fault because he caused all this for the goal of making more money and attracting more talented recruits. I say you have ZERO evidence to back this last sentence up. So yeah, we don't understand each other. And it's not a matter of you having a higher moral code than I. You certainly have more righteous indignation, but I have come to distrust that tendency in people. What you really have is the tendency to blame. Irrespective of the facts. Plenty of that going on in PARF, in my opinion. Which is why I don't got there these days. Facts are important to me. Not to everyone, I see.
__________________
'83 SC
Old 11-08-2011, 08:01 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #43 (permalink)
Free Exams All November!
 
McLovin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: McLovin's Gynocological Clinic
Posts: 6,713
I have plenty of evidence to form my opinion. I've read the grand jury report. It's linked on ESPN. You will see from there, Paterno did not contact prosecutors or authorities. He did not put pressure on the athletic department to act. He did very little, the bare minimum to give himself some plausible deniability and what was probably the legal minimum (prob. on the advice of counsel) and keep it quiet. And it will work - it went uncovered for a decade (while this guy was out raping children, including by using the Penn State facilities as his own little trap for children) and he apparently will not be indicted like the Athletic Director and others. So, good for you, Joe, you escaped criminal prosecution and you had that extra decade to get to 409 wins. Hurray for Joe.

The editorial boards of every newspaper in Penn (where Paterno is a god) also agree with me. They are calling it what it is: A shameful mark on Paterno's otherwise good record. They are calling for this to be his last year because of it. Examples:

The front page of the Philadelphia Daily News is a photo of Paterno with a one-word headline: Shame.

The Star-Ledger of Newark, N.J., on its editorial page, wrote: "This would be a sad and ignominious ending to Joe Paterno's legacy, but it must be just that -- an ending." The editorial concluded with: "Given the disgusting nature of these widespread allegations, the insidious connections to Penn State football and Paterno's lack of judgment when told, it's time for him to take his 409 victories and Hall of Fame bust and leave. Quickly."

Law enforcement agrees with me. State police commissioner Frank Noonan said, as far as state police can tell, Paterno fulfilled his legal requirement to report. "But somebody has to question about what I would consider the moral requirements for a human being that knows of sexual things that are taking place with a child," Noonan said. "I think you have the moral responsibility, anyone. Not whether you're a football coach or a university president or the guy sweeping the building. I think you have a moral responsibility to call us."

The victims and their parents agree with me.

But you don't. And that's ok.

(BTW, of course I never said this was "all Paterno's fault." Your just making that up to try to make your argument. Of course it isn't all his fault. But as far as what goes on in the Penn State football locker room, IMO the buck stops at Paterno. And, even besides that, just as a human being, he had a responsibility to do more than he did.)

Last edited by McLovin; 11-08-2011 at 08:49 AM..
Old 11-08-2011, 08:26 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #44 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bellwood, PA
Posts: 2,021
Garage
Technically his boss was the Athletic Director, Tim Curley. He told Curley and he told Gary Schultz, who was a PSU VP and head of the Campus Police. I suppose he could have stayed on the phone all night, calling the State College Police, the PA State Police, state Attorney General, the FBI, and then President Bush, who he was friendly with.
__________________
97 2.5 Boxster
78 911SC 9118300015
65 911 301368
65 912 450355
'76 BMW 2002 (SCCA ITB racer)
Old 11-08-2011, 08:37 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #45 (permalink)
Free Exams All November!
 
McLovin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: McLovin's Gynocological Clinic
Posts: 6,713
And now it appears Penn State agrees with me, as Paterno's press conference has just been canceled, and:

STATE COLLEGE, Pa. -- Penn State administrators on Tuesday canceled Joe Paterno's weekly news conference in which he was expected to field questions about a sex-abuse scandal involving former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky.

Soon after, The New York Times reported that Penn State's board of trustees has had discussions about how to manage the 84-year-old Paterno's departure. The newspaper, citing "two people briefed on conversations among the university's top officials," said that Paterno's exit could come within days or weeks.
Old 11-08-2011, 08:39 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #46 (permalink)
 
Now Available for Ordering:   101 Projects For Your BMW 3 Series 1982-2000  [more info]
Registered User
 
pwd72s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Linn County, Oregon
Posts: 31,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by McLovin View Post
And now it appears Penn State agrees with me, as Paterno's press conference has just been canceled, and:

STATE COLLEGE, Pa. -- Penn State administrators on Tuesday canceled Joe Paterno's weekly news conference in which he was expected to field questions about a sex-abuse scandal involving former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky.

Soon after, The New York Times reported that Penn State's board of trustees has had discussions about how to manage the 84-year-old Paterno's departure. The newspaper, citing "two people briefed on conversations among the university's top officials," said that Paterno's exit could come within days or weeks.
Not exactly leaving on top...
__________________
"Now, to put a water-cooled engine in the rear and to have a radiator in the front, that's not very intelligent."
-Ferry Porsche (PANO, Oct. '73) (I, Paul D. have loved this quote since 1973. It will remain as long as I post here.)
Old 11-08-2011, 08:41 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #47 (permalink)
Free Exams All November!
 
McLovin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: McLovin's Gynocological Clinic
Posts: 6,713
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveE View Post
Technically his boss was the Athletic Director, Tim Curley. He told Curley and he told Gary Schultz, who was a PSU VP and head of the Campus Police. I suppose he could have stayed on the phone all night, calling the State College Police, the PA State Police, state Attorney General, the FBI, and then President Bush, who he was friendly with.
Yep, technically that is true.

Yes, Paterno told those two. And then went on and pretended like nothing ever happened. No follow up. No investigation. Paterno saw that nothing was happening, that it was being swept under the rug. And did nothing. And got another 10 years before the scandal broke, and his precious 409 wins.

Meanwhile, innocent children were being raped during those years. Which could have been prevented had Paterno simply picked up the phone and called the police.

Again, some are ok with that. I'm not, as it turn out, most aren't.

But you are. I guess that's your right.
Old 11-08-2011, 08:44 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #48 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bellwood, PA
Posts: 2,021
Garage
I don't know what he pretended and neither do you. Since we're only a few days into the legal process I'm not ready to lock anyone up and throw away the keys just yet.

But you go ahead.
__________________
97 2.5 Boxster
78 911SC 9118300015
65 911 301368
65 912 450355
'76 BMW 2002 (SCCA ITB racer)
Old 11-08-2011, 08:47 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #49 (permalink)
Free Exams All November!
 
McLovin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: McLovin's Gynocological Clinic
Posts: 6,713
Good grief.

We're not "a few days into the legal process." Where do you get that stuff?

There's already been a complete Grand Jury investigation, and a voluminous written Grand Jury indictment - with findings, etc. - handed down.

Do you know how long that legal process takes?

Plus Paterno has already made public statements and admissions. (Although apparently there will be no more).

This is disgusting. I'm done with you.
Old 11-08-2011, 08:53 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #50 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bellwood, PA
Posts: 2,021
Garage
Sorry, I must have missed the convictions and sentencing.

This should all be over when? The end of the week?
__________________
97 2.5 Boxster
78 911SC 9118300015
65 911 301368
65 912 450355
'76 BMW 2002 (SCCA ITB racer)
Old 11-08-2011, 08:56 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #51 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Superman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Auburn, WA. USA
Posts: 18,649
Lemme get this straight. Paterno hears a complaint one evening at his house and the following day reports it to his Athletic Director. From there, the local Prosecutor becomes involved. Eventually a grand jury conducts an investigation. So.....we've got an Athletic Director, a Prosecutor and a Grand Jury pursuing this and, since Sandusky is not yet hanged, Joe Paterno is to blame?
__________________
'83 SC
Old 11-08-2011, 09:16 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #52 (permalink)
Registered User
 
madmmac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Above the fog, Washington and in the sun AZ
Posts: 1,669
Garage
How can Mike McQueary ever sleep at night? What a coward. Seeing a young boy getting raped and walking away.

They both need to retire. When it came time to step up to do the right thing, they both disappeared. I think 911 right when it happened. Case closed.

Sad, very sad.
__________________
madmmac AKA Mitch

1984 Factory Turbo Look
2006 4Runner
1998 TRD Supercharged 4Runner (Sleeper)
Old 11-08-2011, 09:16 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #53 (permalink)
The Moral Melee
 
Seahawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 10,250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superman View Post
Lemme get this straight. Paterno hears a complaint one evening at his house and the following day reports it to his Athletic Director. From there, the local Prosecutor becomes involved. Eventually a grand jury conducts an investigation. So.....we've got an Athletic Director, a Prosecutor and a Grand Jury pursuing this and, since Sandusky is not yet hanged, Joe Paterno is to blame?
I am a little surprised. It wasn't a complaint. McQueary saw a young boy being molested, raped.

In my company there is zero, zip, nada tolerance for for racial or sexual harassment, either direction.

To say that Paterno somehow gets a pass because he made other folks aware OF A RAPE OF A BOY is wrong. After I got through with the rapist I'd have called 911 and had the scumbag arrested.

But he didn't.
__________________
Paul
1973 BMW R75/5
1988 SL560
Old 11-08-2011, 09:24 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #54 (permalink)
"O"man(are we in trouble)
 
widgeon13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: On the edge
Posts: 11,704
There is plenty of guilt to go around in this one. They are all looking for a scapegoat now. I don't see Paterno as" jail" guilty but he is guilty of gross disregard for another human being. And the worst part is this involved children.

Hell, Sandusky's name isn't being mentioned much except in the newspapers. It's all the other perverts that turned a blind eye just to keep this all under the table.

Pretty cut and dried in my mind. The real question is WTF isn't guilty of unethical behavior in this one???? And all done to keep winning football games and try and preserve reputation, well you can forget about that now.
Old 11-08-2011, 09:28 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #55 (permalink)
Free Exams All November!
 
McLovin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: McLovin's Gynocological Clinic
Posts: 6,713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superman View Post
Lemme get this straight. Paterno hears a complaint one evening at his house and the following day reports it to his Athletic Director. From there, the local Prosecutor becomes involved. Eventually a grand jury conducts an investigation. So.....we've got an Athletic Director, a Prosecutor and a Grand Jury pursuing this and, since Sandusky is not yet hanged, Joe Paterno is to blame?
No, you don't "have it straight."

You are either honestly mistaken about the facts (wouldn't be a first, see, e.g., the "corporations" thread from a few weeks ago), or you are being dishonest in your characterization.

You obviously haven't followed this very closely, or read the grand jury transcript.

But, here's a clue:

According to a grand jury report, Paterno back in 2002 was informed by a grad assistant that he had seen former Penn State football coach Jerry Sandusky naked and forcing a boy who appeared to be about 10-years-old to have anal sex in the showers of the school's sports complex. Paterno reportedly told his boss, Athletic Director Tim Curley, but it's unclear whether the coach did anything further to follow up on the shocking report.

And incredibly no one, Paterno or his superiors, reported this alleged incident to the authorities. Those of us who have been on campus find it a joke that Coach Paterno would now say that he reported the incident to his bosses. What bosses? Everyone knows Paterno had as much or more power on that campus than anyone to make things happen, including the president.


See that bolded part?

That's what you left out of your "let me get this straight" recitation. See, the little bit about reporting it to authorities (or making sure that it was reported) is missing from your charactarization. It should go immediately after your sentence ending "Athletic Director." You imply that your recitation reads:

"Lemme get this straight. Paterno hears a complaint one evening at his house and the following day reports it to his Athletic Director. The AD and/or Paterno immediately reports it to the authorities. From there, the local Prosecutor becomes involved. Eventually a grand jury conducts an investigation."

But, because that reporting was not done, and the matter successfully covered up by Penn State (including by Paterno by his silence) for MANY YEARS, many, possibly dozens, of innocent children were subjected over the next few years to horrible sexual abuse. (Anal rape of 10 year olds. Good god).

Does that help put it a little straighter for you, why there is national, unanimous outrage about this?

I sure hope it does. Because their actions - including Paterno's - as human beings were inexusable.

Last edited by McLovin; 11-08-2011 at 09:54 AM..
Old 11-08-2011, 09:47 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #56 (permalink)
Did you get the memo?
 
onewhippedpuppy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 19,387
If you were told by a co-worker that one of your employees was caught raping a 10 year old boy at work, would you just tell your boss? Chew on that one for a little while.....
Old 11-08-2011, 10:16 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #57 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Superman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Auburn, WA. USA
Posts: 18,649
If the previous thread you're referencing is the one I am thinking of, I cited court cases in which CEO's were prosecuted for failures in their duties of care and loyalty. I meant it when I said that corporations are legally required to have no more conscience than is necessary to maintain sufficient community goodwill in order to maximize profits. That is their sole agenda. Maximizing profits. While I notice that some people imagine corporations to have hearts and souls and the welfare of civic communities in mind, I also notice beliefs in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and unicorns. Similar.

That said, in this thread I am somewhat just playing Devil's Advocate (certainly an accurate term in this instance). I like to do that. I like to be the guy who says "Wait a minute.....is there only one way of looking at this and have all the facts been incorporated into the discussion." I don't disagree with you. Yes, a travesty and a tragedy seems to have occurred. And yes, it appears Paterno could have done more.

Crying out for his lynching, or even casting aspersions about my moral code, might be tempting and fun (particularly for people who just love to BLAME BLAME BLAME), but I continue to suspect it shortcuts the actual facts in this case. In other words, while I see everyone's condemnation of Paterno (which, again, may be substantially justified), I also see much, much greater failures by several others in this story. Perhaps the most glaring is McQueary's failure to march into that shower and stop a rape, then call police. At an absolute, bare frickin' minimum. Most of us would have had to tell the police that Sandusky was lying on the shower floor unconscious. That was the first of several failures, not counting Sandusky's horrific behavior.
__________________
'83 SC
Old 11-08-2011, 10:25 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #58 (permalink)
Registered User
 
madmmac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Above the fog, Washington and in the sun AZ
Posts: 1,669
Garage
McQueary walking through the shower area and sees Sandusky obviously raping Joe's wife. Not lovemaking, raping.

He waits and calls his Dad that night to see what he should do?

Tells Joe the next day. Joe thinks the best appropriate action is to tell the AD?

Duck, cover, monkey roll.
__________________
madmmac AKA Mitch

1984 Factory Turbo Look
2006 4Runner
1998 TRD Supercharged 4Runner (Sleeper)
Old 11-08-2011, 10:45 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #59 (permalink)
Free Exams All November!
 
McLovin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: McLovin's Gynocological Clinic
Posts: 6,713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superman View Post
I also see much, much greater failures by several others in this story. Perhaps the most glaring is McQueary's failure to march into that shower and stop a rape, then call police. At an absolute, bare frickin' minimum. Most of us would have had to tell the police that Sandusky was lying on the shower floor unconscious. That was the first of several failures, not counting Sandusky's horrific behavior.
Well, I'd agree with that.

I don't know what kind of man could walk in and see a 60 year old anally raping a 10 year old, and turn and walk away and let it continue. Absolutely shocking (although that's too weak a word, I'm not sure a strong enough word exists).

Clearly, there were different levels of responsibility. Based on the facts as known (from admissions, statements, the grand jury, etc.), it is pretty obvious, though, that Paterno's actions/inactions were not those of a pillar of responsibility.

Did he do anything illegal? Well, he wasn't indicted, but IMO after reading the findings of the indictment, he was pretty close. Close enough that I think he is legally eligible to claim the 5th Amendment right to not say anything more (or be compelled to say anything), which is my guess he will do from hereon out.

In the end, some measure of justice will be done. He will be either fired immediately, or in any event be gone this year for sure. His legacy is forever tarnished. His 409 wins are tarnished. Hopefully he never has a good night sleep again.
Old 11-08-2011, 10:53 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #60 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:38 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2011 Pelican Parts - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 


DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.