Tuscon driver mows down cyclists

[diverdan]

There is no room for Road Rage or assault - ZERO tolerance! We all have to share the road with farm machines, mobile homes in transit, slow moving behemoth trucks, deer, raccoons, solo cyclists, and groups (moto or otherwise.) I've driven with groups on runs through Mulholland and Latigo where excellent discipline was followed by the drivers and the same for the moto bike groups. We often saw lone wolves who didn't exhibit much sensibility. In northern Michigan one of my favorite roads (Tunnel of Trees) has become bicycle infested on weekends so one has to be more judicious. The highway that I live on has some awesome twisties and is a favorite with the motorcyclists who coexist well with the cars and farm machines, but it is dicey for cyclists, but usually traffic is light. Not a place for side by side riding. Side by side seems to be the real concern when the speed of the pack is significantly lower than motorized traffic when the cyclists occupy traffic lanes. It is dangerous and instigates road rage. I cycle and ride sport bikes both solo and with groups. On the sports bike I usually hang back so I can play when its safe and refuse to do the side by side ride. On the bicycle, I will not pass when that action may interfere with a passing motorist's projected path for everyone's safety. In the Arabian Gulf I do the cycling early on the weekend mornings and that is the only time that I feel safe as there is virtually no traffic on the outlying streets. We are concerned about our lives!
In the Michigan young drivers are faced with $200 a month for basic liability insurance and many are just forgetting about owning a car. Welcome to increased bicycling as a necessity.

Diverdan

[diverdan]

John L.

Interesting research. Like so many on this board, I don't know what anonymity is while behind the wheel. I've got a bunch of cars, 99% of which are the only ones of their kind/color where I live, and even the Triumph Daytona is a rarity in my neck of the woods. Porsche and Ferrari events are not anonymous either, and the event participants must stand up to society's standards. As Porsche drivers we do live in the spotlight. It is unfortunate that a few unaware posers driving Porsches have used their cars to give the rest of us a bad name. Ie, the Porsches and Porcupine joke. Admittantly jealousy plays a big role.

Dan

[fintstone]

As long as there are license plates...there is little anonymity.

[Jeff Higgins]

It doesn't take a freakin' rocket psychologist to figure out that folks behave differently when they think they are anonymous. Just look at this very BBS - there is certainly no shortage of twits posting some of the most blithering drivel I have ever seen in my life, or girding their virtual loins to post things they would never have the nutsack to say face to face. Real men, one and all, hiding behind their cutsie little screen names.

In the context of this thread, take this very same tough guy and put him in a pack of cyclists. All of a sudden, for a few fleeting moments, he is large and in charge. His surly wife is no longer hen pecking him, his boss is no longer breathing down his little incompetent pencil neck, and he gets to make the rules. No one will dare screw with him - he is a cyclist, by God, and he has rights. And he is going to make damn good and sure everyone knows that. He's the yippy little dog snapping at everything that passes from the protection of his little fence - until someone hops the fence or opens the gate - then he runs off, tail between his legs, whimpering and racing for mama's skirt. Pathetic.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Tobra

You ignorant mugs need to learn about sarcasm and humor, Mr Higgins has it figured out.

What do you base this opinion on? Seriously, this is absolute conjecture.

Oh I see you expanded on this. You have a couple anecdotal incidents that allow you to read this guy's mind and the minds of the folks you cite in your supporting statements.

Here is a flash for you. The cyclists are shading the truth. I guarantee it happened differently than how they said it did. My guess would be that a couple of the riders took offense at something the driver did or said, maybe they whacked his car, said something about his mother or something. Did the driver over react? Certainly. Are the cyclists without culpability? I don't believe that for a moment.

Yep, the driver got close or said something and the riders gave crap back and piss him off. I see it all the time. Hell, I have done it myself, get around or get the hell away.

[Tobra]

John, your assertion that people are anonymous in a car does not hold water. I did not read any of your links. It is a fallacious assumption. I have license plates on all my cars, hence am never anonymous while driving. If you were to say that people driving cars don't see the others on the road as people, but whatever car they are driving, I would agree.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by look 171

Yep, the driver got close or said something and the riders gave crap back and piss him off. I see it all the time. Hell, I have done it myself, get around or get the hell away.

Or maybe, just maybe, it was the other way around, and the cyclists instigated it. You have absolutely no way of knowing.

This was a pro team, no? A bunch of dopers out on a training ride, free to shoot up on whatever performance enchancing cocktails they please, since the team doctor will take care of them (thanks, Lance, for lifting the veil on this little "sporting" charade known as "pro cycling"). An angry pack of roid-raging 20-somethings that think they own the road. Guys who are full of piss and vinegar anyway (and quite full of themselves as well, I'm sure), encouraged by agents, trainers, coaches, the media, and everyone else telling them how "awesome" they are. Little wonder that they are attacking innocent motorists.

[jyl]

People may not really be entirely anonymous in cars (due to license plates) but they feel like they are (they don't think about the identifying plate - why? because some people are stupid, and others know that hardly anyone gets a plate after an incident.)

You can read my links, or do your own research, or do neither, as you like. Doesn't matter to me.

[Spud]

Just so I'm clear, Jeff's position is that if someone says something mean to you its time to go defcon 5 and start using your car as a deadly weapon?

Seriously Jeff, you're way off course on this thread.

[Laneco]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Or maybe, just maybe, it was the other way around, and the cyclists instigated it. You have absolutely no way of knowing.

This was a pro team, no? A bunch of dopers out on a training ride, free to shoot up on whatever performance enchancing cocktails they please, since the team doctor will take care of them (thanks, Lance, for lifting the veil on this little "sporting" charade known as "pro cycling"). An angry pack of roid-raging 20-somethings that think they own the road. Guys who are full of piss and vinegar anyway (and quite full of themselves as well, I'm sure), encouraged by agents, trainers, coaches, the media, and everyone else telling them how "awesome" they are. Little wonder that they are attacking innocent motorists.

Jeff? It's Team Jamis... These guys don't make much over minimum wage. There aren't "agents" and "media" etc. Pro riding at this level is couch surfing, shared hotels, and darned socks, not the Taj Majal.

Hey - did you hear about the guy in the Oldmobile Aurora who became enraged over the 18 wheeler that was going slow up the mountain? Boy he rammed that car into the truck and taught it a thing or too, didn't he? Oh wait...that didn't happen. People don't do that. They take a knock at a pedestrian, or a cyclist or a tiny car, but not anything that will hurt THEM. It's called being a bully.

angela

[RWebb]

Jeff's position is that he may as well enjoy messing with y'all

[Laneco]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Jeff's position is that he may as well enjoy messing with y'all

Well in that case, he succeeded! I nearly "Higgins-ed" when I read it.

angela

[jyl]

Yup, Jeff has turned into a troll.

[WolfeMacleod]

Originally Posted by jyl

Yup, Jeff has turned into a troll.

Well, SOMEONE has to be the Devil's Advocate!

[Jeff Higgins]

I well remember my school and post-school years when my roommate introduced me to weight lifting. As an avid cyclist and soccer player, I was not carrying any upper body mass to speak of. 6'0", 170 pounds, and most of that in my legs. He thought he would help me out by helping me "bulk up" a bit. So, he introduced me to the gym. A local, small-time, dark and damp hole in the wall - a real "man's" gym.

There was nobody who worked out there that was any kind of pro bodybuilder or anything like that. What there was, however, was a lot of guys who aspired to become one. Some made it quite high up in the amateur ranks, though, even winning NPC level shows.

I don't believe a place on earth exists that suffers the rampant drug abuse I witnessed in that place. Struggling amateurs, wannabe pros, just not quite good enough to break through into the big time. Those were the guys most susceptible to, most enticed by the promise of getting over the hump through drug use. Being somebody was so close they could taste it. They would resort to anything that offered a chance to taste it.

I rather suspect cycling is the same way. The top amateurs, the low level pros, competing at levels that cannot afford to test as much as they should, emboldening the competitors with the idea they won't get caught. Cyclists that are almost there, would give anything or do anything to get there - I would suspect drug use is more rampant among that level than the very top, elite pros.

That, and it's not as well administered, with many competitors having to resort to self-administering. They just do whatever their buddy says to do with the stuff, who is only doing what he heard from the guy selling the stuff, who really has no idea either. I saw this play out in the gym time and time again. I saw some pretty sobering consequences of this level of drug use, including full-on, no holds barred "roid rage". Hulking 20-somethings with no control over their emotions, desperately trying to "make it". The same healthy looking, vibrant 20-somethings that couldn't get it up, their hormones and testosterone levels being so confused by the introduction of such massive, unnatural levels into their systems. It was a pretty ugly thing to see.

I bet cycling at that level is in much the same boat. That would paint a rather different picture of that day's events, now wouldn't it?

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

much the same boat

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Or maybe, just maybe, it was the other way around, and the cyclists instigated it. You have absolutely no way of knowing.

This was a pro team, no? A bunch of dopers out on a training ride, free to shoot up on whatever performance enchancing cocktails they please, since the team doctor will take care of them (thanks, Lance, for lifting the veil on this little "sporting" charade known as "pro cycling"). An angry pack of roid-raging 20-somethings that think they own the road. Guys who are full of piss and vinegar anyway (and quite full of themselves as well, I'm sure), encouraged by agents, trainers, coaches, the media, and everyone else telling them how "awesome" they are. Little wonder that they are attacking innocent motorists.

Jeff,

You might be correct that the riders may have something to the driver first. As a person who spend years of my youth hanging around these training rides, most riders could careless and normally will say nothing to a driver unless he got too close or done something to bother them before they waste their breath. Keep in mind that it takes strength out of their breath to scream at a driver going 30+. Most people or drivers will never notice, but that was why I made that assumption because it doesn't make sense for the riders to through the first punch, if you will.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I well remember my school and post-school years when my roommate introduced me to weight lifting. As an avid cyclist and soccer player, I was not carrying any upper body mass to speak of. 6'0", 170 pounds, and most of that in my legs. He thought he would help me out by helping me "bulk up" a bit. So, he introduced me to the gym. A local, small-time, dark and damp hole in the wall - a real "man's" gym.

There was nobody who worked out there that was any kind of pro bodybuilder or anything like that. What there was, however, was a lot of guys who aspired to become one. Some made it quite high up in the amateur ranks, though, even winning NPC level shows.

I don't believe a place on earth exists that suffers the rampant drug abuse I witnessed in that place. Struggling amateurs, wannabe pros, just not quite good enough to break through into the big time. Those were the guys most susceptible to, most enticed by the promise of getting over the hump through drug use. Being somebody was so close they could taste it. They would resort to anything that offered a chance to taste it.

I rather suspect cycling is the same way. The top amateurs, the low level pros, competing at levels that cannot afford to test as much as they should, emboldening the competitors with the idea they won't get caught. Cyclists that are almost there, would give anything or do anything to get there - I would suspect drug use is more rampant among that level than the very top, elite pros.

That, and it's not as well administered, with many competitors having to resort to self-administering. They just do whatever their buddy says to do with the stuff, who is only doing what he heard from the guy selling the stuff, who really has no idea either. I saw this play out in the gym time and time again. I saw some pretty sobering consequences of this level of drug use, including full-on, no holds barred "roid rage". Hulking 20-somethings with no control over their emotions, desperately trying to "make it". The same healthy looking, vibrant 20-somethings that couldn't get it up, their hormones and testosterone levels being so confused by the introduction of such massive, unnatural levels into their systems. It was a pretty ugly thing to see.

I bet cycling at that level is in much the same boat. That would paint a rather different picture of that day's events, now wouldn't it?

How did doping get into this. Ah, what the hell. I did this with some of the top local riders ( there were a couple of National riders who actually were on the Olympic back up team) all the way into the mid to late 90s. I too was 20 something and wanted to win llike everyone else. There were no dope that I could see. It never cross my mind because I knew that stuff can kill me. This is only a game, not a living like most European youth. Back then and today as well, not all are doping. As a matter of fact, there are very few that do it compare the to amount of people who are racing. I am talking about organized and lic racing, not a bunch of people tearing across the city on a Saturday evening.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by look 171

How did doping get into this.

It started when a couple of our resident dopes chimed in, cock-sure they knew exactly what went down, just from reading one rider's account. The usual suspects, among them one of the notable deep thinkers of PPOT. We were once burdened with a less than capable co-worker like this, whom we came to refer to as "often wrong, but never in doubt".

Originally Posted by look 171

Ah, what the hell. I did this with some of the top local riders ( there were a couple of National riders who actually were on the Olympic back up team) all the way into the mid to late 90s. I too was 20 something and wanted to win llike everyone else. There were no dope that I could see. It never cross my mind because I knew that stuff can kill me. This is only a game, not a living like most European youth. Back then and today as well, not all are doping. As a matter of fact, there are very few that do it compare the to amount of people who are racing.

Oh, doping, not dopes. Gotcha. Just becaue you didn't see it, does not mean it was not there. The guys in the gym were very, very guarded about it (for obvious reasons). Like heroin addicts, they don't exactly advertise to those outside of their inner circle.

The only way I caught on in the gym is because one of the guys my roommate and I lifted with suddenly started to get really big and strong. We had worked out together for over a year, and all of a sudden this guy just took off. Same routine as us, but his weights soon eclipsed ours by a very substantial margin. We kept pressing him for his "secret", never even considering for a moment he was on the juice. There was just no reason for him to be using it. It took months for him to come clean, and even then he was exceedingly nervous and insisted we never, ever tell anyone else. Once we were "in", though, it was simply amazing how many confided in us, and asked if we would like to "participate". Folks you would have never guessed. Vanity can be a horrible master.

Originally Posted by look 171

I am talking about organized and lic racing, not a bunch of people tearing across the city on a Saturday evening.

Ah, from dopers back to just dopes. I believe our leading dope tears around Portlandia/Berserkley in the dark, in the rain, in heavy traffic. But - and this is important - he never causes anyone any grief or puts them in an unsafe motor vehicle/bike situation because, well, because he is just so damn good. Hell, along with his cape, he wears his red underwear on the outside, he's so damn good. "Often wrong, but never in doubt"...

Anyway, no one will ever really know what happened here. We have a whole pack of (surprise) collaborating "witnesses" vs. one motorist. In our society, unfortunately, the motorist will always be guilty until proven innocent. We see that quite clearly with our resident dopes, right here in our brave little world of PPOT. Deep thinkers, one and all...

[Tobra]

John, you are attaching a rational thought process to an irrational act. It is like trying to figure out why that guy shot up that movie theater in Colorado, he is crazy, that is why.

As Mr Higgins indicates, no way we ever know what really happened. The cyclists claim there was nothing to precipitate this event. That is simply not plausible.