Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by sithot

Tom

Infuriating for my political beliefs..this is all too true, As far as political power goes? Oregon may as well be Massachusetts..

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

Actually, we have more forest fire problems because the conservationists didn't realize that "protecting" wilderness from fire reduces nature's way of clearing dead lumber and keeping the forest healthy. Then, when there is a fire, there is so much kindling we have a problem that we can't control.
Also, as a Meteorology/Environmental Science major in college, it was pounded into my head that the Earth's cycles are measured in thousands or millions of years. Not a few decades! All of Big Al's hype over global warming flies in the face of this. But hey, its easier to be in denial and make a political name for one's self.
Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

+1 But what do I know? I've lived in Oregon for only 60 years..

[Gunter]

The best evidence that greenhouse gases are natural and not due to mindless consumerism is the air quality in SoCal; especially L.A.
All very normal, nothing to do with millions of cars idling stuck in traffic.
Those tree huggers and more than half the ph.D's on this planet are just plain wrong.

Why would we listen to them when we have so many armchair-experts?
(Head back into the proverbial hole in the ground)

I found some "green" oil: Olive oil and Avocado oil mixed together, very good on salads.

As for the engine, BP sounds good and if I cannot get it, I'll use Swepco and might even throw in some EOS now and then.

Thanks Harry and Charles for all your effort and help.

[movin]

I have lived in Los Angeles since 1958 and I have witnessed how crappy the air used to be. It was bad. There were days I struggled on my paper route because it actually was painful to breath (cir. early 60's) while riding the miles it took. Today it's drastically different because of the quality improvements brought about by emissions regulations and enforcement. We do have impact on the air we breath especially in a scenario like the LA basin where circulation sometimes is minimal.
But this issue of dumbing down essential anti-wear components of motor oil without vetting the issue before the public and explaining or warning about the potential impact on not so older vehicles is irresponsible of most all the oil companies. Bottom line, they didn't want the bad PR and didn't give a rat's ass about the potential for any damage, it's buyer beware time... get educated.
Can anyone think of any company that faithfully warned the public of this? I can't. Bunch of putz's.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by movin

But this issue of dumbing down essential anti-wear components of motor oil without vetting the issue before the public and explaining or warning about the potential impact on not so older vehicles is irresponsible of most all the oil companies. Bottom line, they didn't want the bad PR and didn't give a rat's ass about the potential for any damage, it's buyer beware time... get educated.
Can anyone think of any company that faithfully warned the public of this? I can't. Bunch of putz's.

Well said,......

IMHO, the long-term effects of these changes in motor oils will comprise a major wind-fall for the automobile repair industry to the detriment of car owners, nationwide.

Its good for car makers in terms of auto & parts sales but bad for the consumer's pocketbook.

[cnavarro]

I know this is a cross post, but I finally finished my spintron to test oils this weekend with a few days free time to tinker.



What is not shown is the steel tank we fabricated around it (holds 10 qts of oil). I'll shoot some vid of it in operation. I also put a tap to draw samples during operation for oil analysis. We will be running Castrol GTX as the control for ~50 hours, then I'll put in a new set of bearings, cam, and lifters, and keep trying new oils. Will take time, but we'll have some good results for comparison.

Here is video of the fixture in operation with almost no spring tension (it's adjustable) and running only at 300 rpm for 15 seconds just to ensure it was working fine. Sorry it's dark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZDu_olrnOI

This isn't the first time I've been involved with this sort of bench testing, as the wear problems aren't anything new and we've been trying to address them since the SL oils came out a few years back and I worked with Aircooled Technology trying different coatings, radii, surface treatments, etc.

Here is what we did way back before we actually thought that the oils might be the problem. All the cams on this test were run with Castrol GTX 20w50:

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/lifters.htm

[livi]

Oil gurus. Please give me an educated speculation, relatively, as of how much of total engine wear will depend on which of the below:

1. Cold starts.

2. Abusing engine, including stressing engine while still cold and driving short trips without reaching operational temp.

3. Oil changes too far apart.

4. Wrong oil (ZDDP low).

Please, give me a wild guess how many per cent each of the above is responsible for. This oil debate is difficult for a novice to grasp, not least since different gurus have different opinions. As always. This would give me some perspective on this hot issue.

Thanks!

[movin]

Charles, you will be heating the oil to normal operating temps while testing your new contraption, right?

[JFairman]

While at Walmart buying all the mobil one v-twin 20-50 they had in stock at somewhere around $8.40 a quart, I saw Castrol 20w-50 non synthetic 4 cycle motorcycle oil in quarts next to it.
(they had a Castrol 2 cycle motorcycle oil version too but it can't be good for us)
I havn't heard any mention of this oil so I wonder how it compares in the zddp levels department. It was around $2.75 a quart.
It may be very good stuff...

Charles, I've been wondering if you've checked it out yet?

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by livi

Oil gurus. Please give me an educated speculation, relatively, as of how much of total engine wear will depend on which of the below:

1. Cold starts.

2. Abusing engine, including stressing engine while still cold and driving short trips without reaching operational temp.

3. Oil changes too far apart.

4. Wrong oil (ZDDP low).

Please, give me a wild guess how many per cent each of the above is responsible for. This oil debate is difficult for a novice to grasp, not least since different gurus have different opinions. As always. This would give me some perspective on this hot issue.

Thanks!

I can't give a true straight answer to you. I've read every technical paper on oils published in the last 30 years and I don't think anyone has been able to come up with conclusive answers to all of the above. The best I can truely say is that all the above cases typically will not result in a catastrophic failures unless there are special circumstances.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by JFairman

While at Walmart buying all the mobil one v-twin 20-50 they had in stock at somewhere around $8.40 a quart, I saw Castrol 20w-50 non synthetic 4 cycle motorcycle oil in quarts next to it.
(they had a Castrol 2 cycle motorcycle oil version too but it can't be good for us)
I havn't heard any mention of this oil so I wonder how it compares in the zddp levels department. It was around $2.75 a quart.
It may be very good stuff...

Charles, I've been wondering if you've checked it out yet?

I'm sure the Castrol 20W-50 motorcycle oil is better than GTX 20w50, but by how much. It's come down to the fact that yes, some oils have acceptable levels of Zn and P, but there are clear performance differences between them. Long term use and continual UOA among multiple users will be needed to give definative proof of a product's viability, as has been done with Swepco and Brad Penn.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by movin

Charles, you will be heating the oil to normal operating temps while testing your new contraption, right?

Debating. Some of the journals published in the SAE purposefully don't heat the oil in these kind of simulated wear devices. The biggest variable will be to keep the oil temperature constant. I also need to see how much heat is actually generated by the springs and friction at the cam and lifters. This may heat the oil sufficiently. There is plenty of oil flow, as the rotation of the cam inside the case cavity acts like a pump all on it's down.

[livi]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

I can't give a true straight answer to you. I've read every technical paper on oils published in the last 30 years and I don't think anyone has been able to come up with conclusive answers to all of the above. The best I can truely say is that all the above cases typically will not result in a catastrophic failures unless there are special circumstances.

I believe that is the answer I was looking for. Thanks!

Reminds me of the old saying - the more you learn and the more experience you get, the less you feel you really know. The more humble you tend to approach the "truths" in this world. Same in medicin. What´s healthy for you today is in best case not lethal next week. Science is a wonderful thing.

[oliver88]

Charles,

There is a new oil out by Joe Gibbs Racing...They call it "Hot Rod" oil and claim the additive levels are ideal for older engines...I know their race oils are well respected, i wondered if you had heard about it.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by oliver88

Charles,

There is a new oil out by Joe Gibbs Racing...They call it "Hot Rod" oil and claim the additive levels are ideal for older engines...I know their race oils are well respected, i wondered if you had heard about it.

They make a break in oil with TONS of Zn and P. That said, their oils are basically non-detergent, so for street use, are pretty much null and void. Also, their oils from what I was told by another oil company, have tons of moly.

[rnln]

My question might not be related to the current topic being discussed, but please let me know. The question is if the mix between Brad Penn and Castrol GTX harm the engine in some ways? The reason why I ask this question is because by draining oil from 2 places (engine case and oil tank) there is still some old oil (Castrol) in the line and cooler.

In the past, everytime I bought a used car, I usually drove around for some distant after replaced oil, then replaced oil again hoping to drain to the last drop of old oil. Do I need to do that now when changing between Castrol to Brad Penn?
Thanks.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by sithot

Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils (sounds like Dr. Strangelove)

Tom, Thanks for noticing.

I think Mr. Navarro has done excellent work. His research is excellent and alone it's about all that needs to be said. It is old news because it's been on his site for a good while now. It's been hashed and re-hashed on half a dozen websites regarding engines more expensive than a Porsche.

Yep, and it deserves our attention.

Political agendas and evironmentalists are why you have to deal with this. That and the rest of the left coast tree huggers. Tom

Sadly true. But it is not just the left coast "tree huggers". There is a large movement to do away with the personal automobile as the preferred means of transportation. Look at what the "urban designers" are proposing as "livable" designs.

But we are veering off topic.

So Tom, would you care to weigh in about which oil(s) you say we should use?

[cnavarro]

Well, if you want to support what I would consider a 'green' company, the American Refining Group (who makes Brad Penn), purchased the plant and oil wells at a significant discount (from what I have been told) from Conoco/Phillips, because was substantial ecological damage and required significant abatement by the EPA to clean up the mess. They did that and also were the first oil producer to get ISO 9001 certification. Kudos in my book. Plus they are using American crude, not foreign stuff.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Well, if you want to support what I would consider a 'green' company, the American Refining Group (who makes Brad Penn), purchased the plant and oil wells at a significant discount (from what I have been told) from Conoco/Phillips, because was substantial ecological damage and required significant abatement by the EPA to clean up the mess. They did that and also were the first oil producer to get ISO 9001 certification. Kudos in my book. Plus they are using American crude, not foreign stuff.

Charles,

That is a cool story.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by rnln

My question might not be related to the current topic being discussed, but please let me know. The question is if the mix between Brad Penn and Castrol GTX harm the engine in some ways? The reason why I ask this question is because by draining oil from 2 places (engine case and oil tank) there is still some old oil (Castrol) in the line and cooler.

In the past, every time I bought a used car, I usually drove around for some distant after replaced oil, then replaced oil again hoping to drain to the last drop of old oil. Do I need to do that now when changing between Castrol to Brad Penn?
Thanks.

Being OCD about my car, I have read this question many times before in relation to dirty oil vs fresh oil and the answer has always been that there is no great harm in having some of your old oil in the system because you are still putting in 10-11 Qts of fresh oil. Although Charles has stated that it may not be prudent to mix oils since the different additive packages may not play well together, I imagine that a 10 to 2 or 11 to 1 ratio of BP vs GTX will not be a consideration for one oil change cycle.