Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[drauz]

"What does this mean for us when shopping for used cars?"
another classic additive is indicated... Caveat Emptor.

[BLEW911]

Charles........? I just bought a case of Swepco 306 20w50. Now rereading this thread i see that every time you mention Swepco you say 15w40. You recommend Brad penn 20w50 ,why are you recommending Swepco 15w40? Is there any reason not to use my 20w50?
All these oil threads have me spooked now.
Don

[hbkramer]

Charles,
While working at Dow Corning years ago they produced a Molybdium Disulphide (sp) oil additive which seemed to do wonders for my old detroit iron beaters.
.
Have you run across that in your travels??

I have not seen it commercially available for some time,and since we were unaware of the possible sludge issue back then,i have no idea what it did ,long term,to an engine.

[cnavarro]

I know that the 15w40 meets a whole lot of manufacturer specifications and is the grade used by Jerry Woods and other Porsche shops, not the 20w50. That said, I have not looked at the Swepco 306 20w50 to see if it's formulated any different than the 15w40.

I have not come across any true moly additives for oils. Even Schaeffer's micron moly contained no moly :-) Most oils have low levels of moly with exception of Royal Purple, whose formulations have significantly more moly and phosphorus than any other oils I have ever tested.

I've tried to research moly and engine oils, but there just isn't any research on the topic that I can find. There seems to be more negative 'press' about moly than positive. I can't seem to find the threads on other forums at the moment that I have found, but here is one of them:

http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/engine-and-drivetrain/22022-why-not-use-moly-based-engine/

update: there are linkbacks at the bottom the the page I posted above to most of the other forums where relavant information on moly has been posted.

Fellow Porsche engine builder, Bob Cousimano, started his own oil company, CMW Oil, and is dead set against the use of moly in engine oils. Brad Penn does use moly either.

[9dreizig]

Ok, first let me say I've read no skimmed the whole thread.. However it's quickly approaching the grid girls/ random pics thread.. Charles , would it be possible to summarize in a quick paragraph or two, recommondations and why ?? it would hopefuly stop the " what's wrong with the Walmart oil I buy now" reply's ...( Ok I've got ADD and can't seem to really sort it all out LOL)

[WERK I]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

..................Fellow Porsche engine builder, Bob Cousimano, started his own oil company, CMW Oil, and is dead set against the use of moly in engine oils. Brad Penn does use moly either.

I thought the moly was quickly filtered out with today's paper filters. Of course, if a substance is filtered, the filtering element quickly becomes clogged.

[David E. Clark]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

I've tried to research moly and engine oils, but there just isn't any research on the topic that I can find.

On the off chance you haven't seen this 1978 NASA study, here's a link: Lubrication and Failure Mechanisms of Molybdenum Disulfide Films (NASA Technical Paper 1343). Here's another link to a more general motor oil study which has some analysis of Molybdenum Disulfide (not a recommendation, just a link) A Comprehensive Technical Handbook on Motor Oil, Lubrication and Filtration by Dave Mann.

[Jim727]

Originally Posted by WERK-I

I thought the moly was quickly filtered out with today's paper filters. Of course, if a substance is filtered, the filtering element quickly becomes clogged.

Good question.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/ksearch/PEL_search.cgi?command=show_part_page&please_wait=N&make=POR&model=BE21&section=ENGoil&page=3&bookmark=20&part_number=2009-M19
"Lubro Moly MO2 Motor Oil Friction Treatment. The anti-friction lubricant MoS2 forms a highly load-resistant lubricating film on all rubbing and sliding surfaces. It reduces friction and guarantees easier running of the engine. As a result there are the following advantages: significant reductions in fuel and oil consumption, scientifically proven wear reduction of more than 50%, fewer break-downs, and emergency running properties. Tested for catalytic converters and turbochargers."

Comments??

~~~~~~~~

Through 35 years of driving Porsches, I have noticed that no subject generates a more animated discussion than does oil. I have to thank Charles profusely for bringing the oil formulation changes to our attention.

I've read the entire thread, and it seems to me that the relevant points can be summarized as:

1) RTFL. If the oil is API-SM rated, run away! (unless you are driving a 2005 or later car); and,
2) Buy oil made by good producers, not oil sold by good marketers.

Point 2 has always been true, point 1 is the part that is new for us. I have been a long-term user of RedLine and have had great results, but it's now an SM-rated oil. I have to switch.

Thanks again, Charles.
Jim

[kang]

I just jumped into this thread and have only skimmed it. I did some poking around the Mobil web site and found some interesting info. There is a Q&A section with some good stuff.

They list their oils that they think are OK for flat tappet cams here:
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Flat_Tappet_Engines.aspx

The list includes these:

Mobil 1 15W-50, Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W-50 (1200 ppm phosphorus), Mobil 1 0W-40 (1,000 ppm) and Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-30 and 10W-40 (1000 ppm).

They also seem to think that lower levels of zinc are OK for “older” engines: http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Zinc_Motor_Oils.aspx

Here is a table with phosphorus content in their oils.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

[cnavarro]

Table withstanding, IMHO, the only Mobil 1 products I think are of any good are the Mobilube SHC/Delvac 1 gear lube, Mobil 1 5w40 Truck and Diesel (API CI-4+), Mobil 1 MX4t (4T Racing) 10w40, and Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w50.

1000 ppm is marginal for new cars (as what levels are in the M1 0w40 and there are problems, even if not well reported). 1200 ppm may be ok depending on how the oil is formulated, but since "extended performance" means that they have to use calcium sulfonate detergents which even though provide the long life and longer drain intervals, also interfere with the receptor sites for the Zn and P, reducing their efficiency. Oils with levels of Ca detergents that high, as with CI-4 diesel oils, usually have significantly more Zn and P, in the 1400-1600 ppm range. It's all about balance.

[K.B.]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

True, but ..........There are plenty of 15w40 and 20w50 oils much better than Mobil 1 15w50 as well, so I see no reason to switch back. Redline, Royal Purple, Amsoil, Motul, Elf, Fuchs, and the list goes on and on, have good oils, in addition to the favorites of Brad Penn and Swepco. ..... :-)

OK I've tried to keep up with this for the past several months and several threads and several, several, several posts. Fortunately I saw it coming early enough to score on a case of EOS before it went the way of the dinosaur. I've been metering that out as slowly as possible.

I'm sure there are others like me who wonder what is the current list of oils with high enough ZDDP levels to be any good. Could someone make a nice bulleted list that sticks out like a sore thumb so all of us skimmers find it easily?

The wife just got a 07 shelby mustang, looking for an oil for that car now as well. Why is it that I keep seeing that cars after 2005 don't need the high levels of ZDDP? Don't they have camshafts and friction like always?

[cnavarro]

I have a table on my website, but it is sorely out of date. It costs too much money to continually be testing every oil, but rest assured, we have about two years of solid testing on Brad Penn and Swepco, that's why they are recommended. To honestly be able to solidly make a list of oils wider than what is already posted, it would take significant testing at great expense. I am building a spintron to do synthetic (simulated) cam/lifter testing at various spring pressures, but it won't be cheap to run or stock with parts (or oil since it takes 24 qts).

With regards to new cars, the move to DOHC engines with four+ valves per cylinder has allowed for smaller diameter and lighter valves, effectively reducing the amount of spring pressure required to adequately control valves. A new 986/996 engine has only 135# over the nose spring pressure compared to a Porsche 356 at about 190-200# stock; high performance valve springs on the 356 and even 911 can easily exceed 250-300#.

API SL level oils were tested for spring rates from 170-190# if memory serves me correctly, case in point something like a Crown Vic. Wear was a big issue including catastrophic failure during their testing of these oils.

The amount of Zn and P needed is directly proportional to the spring pressures (and to a lesser degree to what detergents are used), at least when it comes to metal to metal contact and wear. Bearing wear, which is another item altogether, is partially dependent on film strength, hence my demand for an oil with a high HTHS viscosity.

[K.B.]

Wow. Great answer. Thanks. The spring pressure makes sense. I guess I need to find each of my vehicles spring pressures to see if they need the zddp or not. Hmmm, this mass reduction of zddp in all major oils is going to take all of the older cars off the road unless the owners know what is going on. There should be a warning label or something on the newer reformulated oils. "Warning - not for older vehicles"

I guess to be safe and not sorry, it is easier to replace a cat than it is to replace motor internals, so brad penn or swepco (or some others) for all my vehicles is the safest bet.

[cnavarro]

Part of the problem is the API, as they determine the standard and what tests are required of an oil to meet a given standard. IMHO, API SM (and to a lesser extent, some SL) oils should be limited to newer engines, to which I can't give you a solid answer as to as year - maybe 2005 and newer?

[rickdm]

Charles, I have been following your recommendation in my '87 Carrera with racing valve springs. I am now using the Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 and have 12 hours of track time and perhaps 1,000 miles on the oil. I would normally be changing the oil about now, but at $9/quart I am hoping to get a little more life out of the oil. Perhaps I will do a Blackstone test to see how it is doing.

Forgetting cost, is there an advantage to running the V-Twin synthetic over the Brad Penn?

Thanks for all your input,
rickdm
'87 Carrera

[nize]

i'm wondering why nobody has discussed porsche factory approval throughout all this. does factory approval mean nothing?

[David E. Clark]

I think the "factory approval" applies only to Porsche vehicles 1984 and newer.

Technical Bulletin: Oils Approved by Porsche.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by nize

i'm wondering why nobody has discussed porsche factory approval throughout all this. does factory approval mean nothing?

Sadly, yes, the factory approval for older cars is minimal at best. Then again, the factory seems to have set the air cooled crowd adrift....

There is an earlier post at Rennlist (http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=384869&page=3) that alludes to the factory recommendations for Mobil M1. Interesting, the poster shows it applying to 1984 and newer cars. And thanks David for the actual report.

[Jim727]

Factory approval has been discussed - as has Porsche's recommended 15k - 20k oil change intervals, but this zeros in very precisely.

Since the API-SM standard didn't exist in 2002, absent time-travel ability it would have been very difficult for Mobil-1 to get approval on an API-SM oil then. (Our 2003 Audi very clearly states that the oil requirement is for API-SJ, for example.) The fact that Porsche approved Mobil-1 in 2002 when it was a very good oil hardly means that the 2002 model engines (or earlier) will like the SM standard Mobil-1, and it would be informative to check a 2002 owner's manual to see what API grade Porsche recommended then.

The label should also say: "Contains the additive 'Marketing Bull*****tium'". Mobil-1 stated the *ahem* truth in a way that is apparent only with careful reading, which goes to my point #2, above.

[sithot]

Thank you, Tree Huggers!