Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Debating. Some of the journals published in the SAE purposefully don't heat the oil in these kind of simulated wear devices. The biggest variable will be to keep the oil temperature constant. I also need to see how much heat is actually generated by the springs and friction at the cam and lifters. This may heat the oil sufficiently. There is plenty of oil flow, as the rotation of the cam inside the case cavity acts like a pump all on it's down.

Constant oil temp? The air cooled P-cars don't do that...

[cnavarro]

Having a bit of residual oil in the lines won't hurt anything when changing - that's why it's best not to go too long, as you want the oil in there to still be OK. I don't expect anyone to truely get every last drop of oil out. I don't :-)

[Jeff Alton]

Mine, as read by me digital dash, seems to only vary a couple of degrees C when I am out driving it hard....

Cheers

[rnln]

Joe, Charles,
Thanks.

[sithot]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

Constant oil temp? The air cooled P-cars don't do that...

Correct.

Ambient temperature rules and is main reason for the switch to water for cooling as you can squeeze only so much power out of an air cooled engine before heat becomes the only issue. Water cooled heads on P-car racers have been around a very long time.
When you control the temperature you control longevity and the vehicle can run lean mixtures meaning your CAFE goes up which means the government is happy.

I'd run tests between 190 F and 230 F with a slant towards more results at 230 F to see how they "really" hold up.

BTW: Looks like Mobil 1 went back to the original formulation on the 15W-50.

From the Mobil website:

Mobil 1 15W-50 is being reintroduced based on popular demand. Mobil 1 15W-50 provides higher viscosity, designed to provide extra protection for performance vehicles and vehicles that operate in severe service, such as towing, hauling and racing. Additionally, Mobil 1 15W-50 contains higher levels of anti-wear (ZDDP or Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) that may be required for certain racing applications and camshaft designs. This is a new Mobil 1 15W-50formulation and is not the same as the product that was marketed a few years ago.


Tom

[David E. Clark]

Can someone tell me exactly what the risk level is if an early Porsche owner (or any early car owner) any uses a "quality" big company oil like Castrol GTX instead of Swepco or Brad Penn?

In other words, if the owner religiously changes the oil as recommended, will it be 10,000, 50,000, 100,000 miles before the Castrol destroys the engine (or before they notice the difference in performance or testing through a leak-down or compression test)? Expressed another way, will the Castrol cause a 1%, 10%, 50% greater wear rate?

Please don't flame me for this question! There are lots of early car owners, like me, who only drive their car a couple of thousand miles a year. If I won't notice any difference for 50,000 miles (25 years for me), I'm going to feel a lot different about this topic than I will if I'll notice the difference in 2,000 miles (next year). Thanks!

[the]

I'm in the same boat with one of my Porsches, only a few miles per year.

But Brad Penn isn't that expensive, you can find it all over the Internet, even eBay. Just order a case, it comes to your door, and you know you are running something that is good and tested. Why take any risk just to save $15 or $20 per year on your oil change?

I figure that'll hold me over for another year. This situation is changing every day, so a year from now, maybe all the other oils will be "fixed," or who knows.

[dmwallace]

David,

The wealth of information that Mr. Navarro has put together is pretty convincing that the "big company" oil is not what it used to be. For me, switching to Brad Penn or Swepco is cheap insurance regardless of mileage.

Brad Penn is available in our local area from Kennedy Oil in High Point. I called them before driving over and they had a case sitting on the counter in the office waiting for me.

Regards,
David

[cnavarro]

Spintron works great, after four hours of run time and a whole day of tinkering, the cam and lifters with GTX also look pretty good too, even with 135#over the nose (set up like a new 996 engine purposefully spring-pressure wise) on one of cam lobe / lifter and the other with 220# over the nose (which is getting to be a performance street spring (where racing is 300+).

Only problem is the drill press I purchased to drive the spintron broke after four hours. :-( I guess it's time to re-engineer the drill press! Based off other spintron done over the years, to get statistically accurate data I really need about 50 hours on each oil. I'll also replace the bearings on the cam each time also to get an indication of thrust bearing wear.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by sithot

.... snip ...
BTW: Looks like Mobil 1 went back to the original formulation on the 15W-50.

From the Mobil website:

Mobil 1 15W-50 is being reintroduced based on popular demand. Mobil 1 15W-50 provides higher viscosity, designed to provide extra protection for performance vehicles and vehicles that operate in severe service, such as towing, hauling and racing. Additionally, Mobil 1 15W-50 contains higher levels of anti-wear (ZDDP or Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) that may be required for certain racing applications and camshaft designs. This is a new Mobil 1 15W-50formulation and is not the same as the product that was marketed a few years ago.


Tom

Hi Tom,

Some where in this thread is a discussion of the marketing gobblygook you quoted here.

Bottom line, they say "is not the same as the product that was marketed a few years ago" but do not bother to tell us how it is different. In my mind this is a marketing ploy and they still are short in the level of ZDDP.

[RWebb]

Charles - great to hear it works!

I'll look forward to seeing some yellow dyed motor parts soon from the GTX.

[Greek55]

Brad Penn is proven, not very expensive and easy to get.
Although Charles doesnt push the fact that he believes in Brad Penn so much that he sells it, I purchased a case from him and had it shipped to my front door. His price is competitive. I ordered on a Monday and was able to do the oil change that weekend. THere is less smoke at start up. THat is all I have noticed up to this point.
My point is, why not Brad Penn until there is some other proven oils that are marketed. Mobile 1 acts like they are hiding something by not telling you what is in it. When they become a little more transparent I will consider going back, or I may stay with the green stuff.

[cnavarro]

Here is what the spintron looked like actually running with the oil tank, sensors, and oil heater going:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g501EYLMpfQ

Verdict on the drill press was the splined shaft that drives off the pulley stripped completely. We are going to try to weld it up to make it solid so that pounding of repeatedly going on and off the cam doesn't eat it up again.

[RWebb]

Noisy!

What are those turbulent clouds coming off the cam - distal to the camera? There appear to be brownish particulates in them...?

[cnavarro]

Yeah, that is partially the sound of a dying drill press :-(

Most of that is air bubbles, but I have drained it three times down for inspection and put the oil right back into the bottles, and you would not believe how much particulate matter (metal debris) is in the oil. One could only imagine if it was an entire engine being broken in, the amount of contamination must be huge! And yes, I meticulously cleaned every part and the oil tank prior to actually filling it and running it for real.

That's why you should change the oil and filter often when breaking in your engine!

[Jim Sims]

"Verdict on the drill press was the splined shaft that drives off the pulley stripped completely. We are going to try to weld it up to make it solid so that pounding of repeatedly going on and off the cam doesn't eat it up again."

Given the setup with it's possible mis-alignment I suspect the drill press quill shaft is experiencing fluctuating or even reversed stresses far beyond its design limits. The splines probably fatigue cracked until there was inadequate section left to carry shear stress. Welding may just move the stress concentration to the toe of the weld where it will grow an existing crack (cracks are almost inevitable with these types of weld repairs) - at least that's been my experience with trying to repair overloaded spline drives. The only sure fix was to go to a larger spline drive. Cool rig though. Cheers, Jim

[hcoles]

regarding.... Mobil 1 15W-50 is being reintroduced based on popular demand. ....

how are we supposed to identify this "new" formulation?

[cnavarro]

This "new" formulation is the non extended performance product that was released back in March, which like their web site says, isn't like the old product. I still have old "tri-synthetic" 15w50 on the shelf as a reference oil :-)

[hcoles]

Charles, Sithot....

Here is the current info. on the Mobil site.
I guess are talking about 3 versions of 15w-50...
1 - old "good" Tri Synthetic
2 - maybe not so good Extended Synthetic
3 - "reintroduced" (don't know how good) plain Mobil 1 with grey cap

Has anyone seen the new grey cap version anywhere?

[cnavarro]

The HTHS of the 15w50 M1 is horrible IMHO - Swepco 306 15w40 is higher. The V-Twin m1 20w50 is nearly 6!

I would say if you really must keep using Mobil 1, just use the motorcycle formulations, just keep an eye on the cat and o2 sensor for deposits or buildup.