Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[billybek]

Morning,
I had mentioned how helpful this thread was a couple of days ago. As I had said, I was a "new" SC owner and I am also new to the site. I posted a thread with a pic of the car titled Billybeks New Ride". Check it out if you have a chance. Billybeks New Ride!
Thanks again for letting me know that the M1 extended performance that came in the car is perhaps not the best oil to have in there.

[hcoles]

my update - I picked up 2 cases of BP 20-50 yesterday
re. Delvac trans juice, they will only get Delvac if I order 4 gallons (1 case)
I asked if they have the "new" grey cap M1 15-50, they don't carry it but have been getting inquiries and can order it..
The place was sort of neat... an old oil distribution company in a tin building.. I felt like I was buying illegal drugs - a couple of nice gals were running the place.

[cnavarro]

http://lnengineering.blogspot.com/

It was a quiet day for once, other than calls with questions about oils. I decided to make a blog out of the dozens of links and bookmarks I have that didn't make it to my oil page. It's a work in progress, but there's lots of info there too for those who want some light reading.

I have also created a public Google Notebook with links to all the SAE journals I've purchased and have been reading with the hope of improving my understanding of oils. If you have access to these publications, they are great reads:

http://www.google.com/notebook/public/03186853421732795501/BDQS6IwoQt4GviOsi

[rickdm]

Charles, I read your new blog as well as re-read your oil page. Thank you, it is really a great resource.

I had one question. I have multiple quarts of M1 15W-50 that I was going to give away, as well as enough M1 V-Twin for another oil change (this is what I am currently running in my 3.2 Carrera track car with EBS performance valve springs). On your page you mention using the V-Twin mixed 50-50 with the regular M1 to get the optimal Z & P. Will this be better than the straight V-Twin in a track car (no cat, no O2 sensor)?

BTW, I have bought a case of the Brad Penn and plan to try it once I use up my V-Twin.

Thank you,

[cnavarro]

If you are going to use M1, I'd stick to using the V-Twin 20w50 straight up in the track car. If you have leftover 15w50, sure go ahead and you can mix it with the 20w50 vtwin, and you should be safe.

[Brent Lineker]

I have a possible solution for any Canadians having trouble getting Brad Penn or Swepco products.At my workplace (Pulp and paper Mill) we use PetroCanada products,I got some information from a tech guy we use from them on Phosphorus and Zinc amounts in their oils.He got me onto their Duron E-10w-40 which is a diesel synthetic with good amounts of both P and Zn.The specs are 1200 for ZN and 1050 for P,with some AC delco EOS added this should be well within our needed specs.

[Bendavis2]

After reading all 30 pages of this thread, feeling totally lost (as a backyard mechanic), then reading your entire faq, and then returning here to re-read all 30 pages of this thread; I finally feel like I have a firm grasp of what's going on.

BUT

I don't drive a 911, even though with all the talk about them, I'm wishing I did. Instead I drive a project 1983 Porsche 944 (140k miles). It's my daily driver, and I spend at least a half hour in her each way to work in the temperate Northwest (just a few miles from Steve Weiner up here in Portland.) And, I still have some unanswered questions, and bow before your almighty knowledge of oil for some clarification.

Since I drive a water-cooled car I'm not sure how much of the forum info applies to me. I've looked in vain for another "super-duper oil thread for 944 drivers" but haven't found one. Most of them refer to this big thread. I've seen vague references to how other cars still need good protection, but as a n00b, I'm not sure if the oils of choice that have been constantly mentioned (BP and Swepco) are good for all old porsches, as long as the correct viscosity is chosen.

Anyway, to the point, I love the idea of using the BP 20w50. I love the protection it could provide for my old engine. But, my factory users manual, my haynes manual, and the recent 2002 porsche blanket statement all give me different viscosities to use. The latest porsche statement, to use the M1 0w40 feels like it has to be respected (as far as viscosity goes, even though it's been stated that the oil lacks the neccesary protection). So, do I use the Brad Penn, but in the 0w30? or do I stick with the 20w50 which seems closer to what my original factory recommendations were? (I have maybe one sub32F start in a year, and rarely see anyhting over 90f in the summer.)

And to complicate matters, you said "The 10w30 and 20w50 are 10% group III syn, so the Brad Penn shouldn't cause any leaks. The 0w30 is the only Brad Penn that is 30-40% group IV syn." so is leaking going to be an issue is I have to use the lighter weight, especially with a car that already eats some oil as part of its regular diet?

And to further complicate matters, you also said: "If 20w50 is too thick (Brad Penn claims good to 20F cold starts), then use the Swepco 15w40". So if I have to use the lighter weight oil because I have a water-cooled engine, do I switch to swepco, and then which weight should I be looking at? I'm fine with either dino or syn, just want my baby to be happy.

I realize that you've already poured so much effort into all the information that you've provided, and I'd make my own conclusions if I was smart enough, but this stuff is over my head; I'd just love some clarification of a recommended brand and vis; and It'd be nice to get some 944 love so I can send some of the other 944 lovers over here to peruse as well. (With a link to your site, of course)

Ben
PDX, OR
1983 Porsche 944

[dmwallace]

Why not try the Swepco 15w-40 for your car? It's not partially synthetic but it does get good marks from Charles and other Porsche gurus including our host (who also sells it). I'm not a guru but have been keeping up with this thread since the beginning.

Regards,
David

[David E. Clark]

Originally Posted by HarryD

...

As a result of this lowering of ZDDP content, and as of this posting, the only choices I am aware of that provide adequate ZDDP Protection include (in no particular order):
Brad Penn Racing Oils (same as the old Kendall from the '70s);
SWEPCO 306;
Redline;
Royal Purple;
Castrol GTX High Mileage; and
Mobil 1 V-Twin MC 20w-50.

added 9/16/2007

Mobil 1 MX4T 10w40
Royal Purple Max Cycle 20w50
Amsoil m/c Harley V-twin 20w50
Castrol Syntec "Classic" 20w50

Added 9/22/2007
Valvoline VR-1 20W-50 -it is marked "Non-Street Legal".

There may be more but I do not know of them.

It looks like we may be in for some hard times.

Added 11/25/2007
This thread has grown beyond my expectations. From what Ihave read and elsewhere, the bottom line is that most (if not all oils) that are pre SM/CJ4 may be ok ... If the label says it meets SM or CJ4, STAY AWAY. ...

HarryD has been updating the recommended oils at the top of this thread. Any of the oils cited by Harry should be OK. Assuming that Castrol GTX High Mileage is still "approved" it's really easy to get and available in all sorts of viscosity blends.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Bendavis2

After reading all 30 pages of this thread, feeling totally lost (as a backyard mechanic), then reading your entire faq, and then returning here to re-read all 30 pages of this thread; I finally feel like I have a firm grasp of what's going on.

BUT

I don't drive a 911, even though with all the talk about them, I'm wishing I did. Instead I drive a project 1983 Porsche 944 (140k miles). It's my daily driver, and I spend at least a half hour in her each way to work in the temperate Northwest (just a few miles from Steve Weiner up here in Portland.) And, I still have some unanswered questions, and bow before your almighty knowledge of oil for some clarification.

Since I drive a water-cooled car I'm not sure how much of the forum info applies to me. I've looked in vain for another "super-duper oil thread for 944 drivers" but haven't found one. Most of them refer to this big thread. I've seen vague references to how other cars still need good protection, but as a n00b, I'm not sure if the oils of choice that have been constantly mentioned (BP and Swepco) are good for all old porsches, as long as the correct viscosity is chosen.

Anyway, to the point, I love the idea of using the BP 20w50. I love the protection it could provide for my old engine. But, my factory users manual, my haynes manual, and the recent 2002 porsche blanket statement all give me different viscosities to use. The latest porsche statement, to use the M1 0w40 feels like it has to be respected (as far as viscosity goes, even though it's been stated that the oil lacks the neccesary protection). So, do I use the Brad Penn, but in the 0w30? or do I stick with the 20w50 which seems closer to what my original factory recommendations were? (I have maybe one sub32F start in a year, and rarely see anyhting over 90f in the summer.)

And to complicate matters, you said "The 10w30 and 20w50 are 10% group III syn, so the Brad Penn shouldn't cause any leaks. The 0w30 is the only Brad Penn that is 30-40% group IV syn." so is leaking going to be an issue is I have to use the lighter weight, especially with a car that already eats some oil as part of its regular diet?

And to further complicate matters, you also said: "If 20w50 is too thick (Brad Penn claims good to 20F cold starts), then use the Swepco 15w40". So if I have to use the lighter weight oil because I have a water-cooled engine, do I switch to swepco, and then which weight should I be looking at? I'm fine with either dino or syn, just want my baby to be happy.

I realize that you've already poured so much effort into all the information that you've provided, and I'd make my own conclusions if I was smart enough, but this stuff is over my head; I'd just love some clarification of a recommended brand and vis; and It'd be nice to get some 944 love so I can send some of the other 944 lovers over here to peruse as well. (With a link to your site, of course)

Ben
PDX, OR
1983 Porsche 944

Hi Ben,

Howdy Neighbor. If you see a guy with a 1973 Red 911 Targa with a Whale Tail, that most likely is me. Say hi.

While Charles and Steve are more of an expert than I, I do know that the wear issues are not confined to air-cooled engines. Rather it is related to the presence of flat tappets that, when improperly lubricated, cause the cams to pit and fail. Perhaps someone on the 944 boards can verify if you have flat or roller tappets. If you have roller Tappets, then the newer SM/CJ-4 oils "should" be ok. Otherwise, you need to be looking for an earlier API Spec Oil.

While I see Steve as an Air cooled guru, I would not be surprised to find out that he has some expertise in the water pumpers as well. Also, the last time I was at Marque Motors, I noticed that they are carrying the ELF oils. (Check this link http://www.elfmoto.us/lub/lubusa.nsf/VS_OPM/52104813F90D33BFC12571EF002E43E7?OpenDocument , click on "Range of Products" engine to get a list.) The ELF's Excellium line can be a promising alternative with decent local availability.

PS Will i be seeing you at the local PCA Arrive and Drives or Autocrosses?

[paulgtr]

amazing thread
just read the whole thing!
lol
I had no idea
I have also been running castrol gtx in my 3.2l
sent BP an email asking about local ditributors here on the east end of long island, but I think I should order from Charles because he has been so involved answering all these questions and in a way that we all can understand
thanks a million

[DRACO A5OG]

Brad Penn Oil & Swepco Fluid Transfusion REPORT from So Cal:

Gentelmen,

Words can not describe the difference, Like a Brand New P-Car!

I am amazed how my engine sounds, even my mechanic noticed a vast difference and was in dis-beleif that BP could do what it did. He was listening very carefully to my engine before the change then when we started my baby. Purrrrrr, no more significant "tappet" noise.

When we replaced the erroneous Syn Fluid (meant for G50's, freakin delaer error) from my 915 Tranny, he exclaimed "whoa, it's like water!"

After I bought him lunch, I drove off and it shifted so smoothly and no more LSD noise coming off of the inclined drive way

I hopped on the freeway, it felt to me more solid rather than a rattling bucket of bolts and so quiet, I did not feel like I had to turn up the stereo to offset the tranny and engine noise.

Maybe a placibo effect but I feel I have more torque now. Shifted through all the gears so Smoothly.

Credits:

Charles Navarro for an indepth explanation of the Brad Penn Oil
Pelican Parts for shipping out my Swepco on time (early)
Rnln "Ron" for selling me one of his extra cases of Brad Penn for the transfusion.
James Park (Mercedes Chief Mechanic for doing all the work)

ATTENTION ALL 915 Transmission Owners with LSD, YOU NEED TO CHANGE TO SWEPCO Gear Lube. If weather permits, 901 Owners You need to change to Brad Penn from Charles Navarro

I can't wait to hit the Track this wednesday

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Bendavis2

Since I drive a water-cooled car I'm not sure how much of the forum info applies to me. I've looked in vain for another "super-duper oil thread for 944 drivers" but haven't found one. Most of them refer to this big thread. I've seen vague references to how other cars still need good protection, but as a n00b, I'm not sure if the oils of choice that have been constantly mentioned (BP and Swepco) are good for all old porsches, as long as the correct viscosity is chosen.

It applies in as much as your 944 makes probably as much HP as a 911 with its given displacement for its age and shares much in common in functionality when it comes to valvetrain with similar valvetrain weights and spring pressures, so sure, it's just as important. The biggest difference is in what I would consider normal oil temperatures - a water cooled engine usually runs cooler oil temperatures until it's on the track, so moisture buildup is as much a concern if not more, which is best addressed by exercising the car for longer periods of time, when you do drive it. Same goes for the aircooled guys.

Anyway, to the point, I love the idea of using the BP 20w50. I love the protection it could provide for my old engine. But, my factory users manual, my haynes manual, and the recent 2002 porsche blanket statement all give me different viscosities to use. The latest porsche statement, to use the M1 0w40 feels like it has to be respected (as far as viscosity goes, even though it's been stated that the oil lacks the neccesary protection). So, do I use the Brad Penn, but in the 0w30? or do I stick with the 20w50 which seems closer to what my original factory recommendations were? (I have maybe one sub32F start in a year, and rarely see anyhting over 90f in the summer.)

I don't really see the need for anyone with any older Porsche needing a 0w30 or 10w30, the 20w50 is just fine going off Porsche's recommendations in their owner's manuals going back into the 80s and early 90s. If the 20w50 is too thick, then you have Swepco 15w40 that fills that need nicely.

And to complicate matters, you said "The 10w30 and 20w50 are 10% group III syn, so the Brad Penn shouldn't cause any leaks. The 0w30 is the only Brad Penn that is 30-40% group IV syn." so is leaking going to be an issue is I have to use the lighter weight, especially with a car that already eats some oil as part of its regular diet?

The leaking really doesn't have anything to do the the viscosity, but rather the synthetic. The 10w30 and 20w50 BP use a Group III (hydrocracked petroleum base) as the 10%, which we know shouldn't be a problem - usually oil manufacturers blend PAO with an Ester, which in layman terms, cancels each other's tendancy to leak. This is an oversimplification. Being that the 0w30 is only PAO, it might indeed leak, but again, it's too think for anything we'd be using it in, other than your new car in lieu of a 5w20 fill.

And to further complicate matters, you also said: "If 20w50 is too thick (Brad Penn claims good to 20F cold starts), then use the Swepco 15w40". So if I have to use the lighter weight oil because I have a water-cooled engine, do I switch to swepco, and then which weight should I be looking at? I'm fine with either dino or syn, just want my baby to be happy.

I have no problem starting my 911 down to freezing with the BP 20w50, which is about 10 degrees warmer than what Brad Penn recommends. This is still within what the manual says. Here's my take - if you have daily starts below or at freezing, then go ahead and use the 15w40.

[hcoles]

Charles, I think you may have mentioned that BP will be coming out with a 10-40 racing...that would seem to resolve all conserns for the daily and some track drivers. If that comes out, I'll likely which after my stock of BP 20-50 runs out.

[cnavarro]

Well, here's the thing. I normally haven't recommended non-synthetic 10w40s - that's why I will probably stick to recommending the Swepco 15w40 until we have some decent data to ensure the 10w40 Brad Penn will work as well as the 20w50 or the 15w40 Swepco. I already have one shop in mind to do some of the testing for me again, as they had already with the 20w50. I'd say it might be a good two years until we know 100% for sure, but it will take some early adopters, many UOAs, and a few teardowns to make sure it works as well as the 20w50.

[M.D. Holloway]

Charles - I would love to send you some oil to check out and see if it would be better than the Swepco or the Brad Penn option. Would you be willing? If so, how much would be enough? I will even toss in some oil analysis kits - Staveley Services of course!

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by LubeMaster77

Charles - I would love to send you some oil to check out and see if it would be better than the Swepco or the Brad Penn option. Would you be willing? If so, how much would be enough? I will even toss in some oil analysis kits - Staveley Services of course!

Sure thing. I plan on trying to get at least another 1500 mi or more on the current fill of Brad Penn in my 911 before I do make a switch. As my 911 isn't a daily driver, it kind of gets all its miles in spurts. It's a shame I can only get in so many miles a year for testing purposes!

[rmurph]

Charles, I can't thank you enough for the info on oil. As a result of this thread I switched my 87 3.2 over to the BP 20-50W. My "seat of the pants guide" says it does pull better, and sounds better. My question is my wife's 2002 Boxster, Porsche recommends Mobil 1 0-40W. Is there something better and if so what. I change the oil & filter every 5,000 mi. thanks again for a very educational and informative thread.

[cnavarro]

No problem at all - whatever I can do to help. You don't want to know how much time I spend every night reading various journals and publications - I just had a box from the SAE show up with about two dozen new publications to read. I don't know when I will get to them...

As far as a Porsche approved oil, I have a list of alternatives to m1 0w40 that are still on the approved list. IMHO, M1 0w40 is one of the poorest approved oils on the list. Not to mention that if you read into the approval process, if there are any formulation changes, the approval is supposed to be revoked. And we know, from countless UOAs and also a change in labeling to SM, that a reformulation has happened. And clearly, on the bottle, it says 2002 Porsche Approval. Plus, they are supposed to have to reapply every 3 years and if reformulation occured, go through the testing process again. I don't think this has happened, or if so, I'm sure the packaging would be updated to say so. Clearly, Mobil has some strategic product placement going on with Porsche with $$$ greasing those wheels.

[paulgtr]

how long does it normally take for Brad penn oil to reply to enquiries about local distributors?
in the meantime, does any one know of a store selling their oil on long island?
thanks in advance