Is it possible that you replaced one of the clutch bolts? I'm thinking along the lines that if you replaced a bolt and it was too long it could hit the case at one point. also: have yo actually looked into all the ports to see if a nut has jammed a valve open?

I have not touched the clutch but good thinking. That is the kind of thing I was thinking about. I will go out and look in all the ports and find out. It should be easy enough since I have not removed the exhaust.

I checked all of the intake valves and they are all completely closed. The exhaust is still on the car so I dont have a good way of checking other then looking at the valve springs and see if they look compressed.

looked at the exhaust valves and none of them look like they are jammed with a nut. i can take pics if anyone needs.

anyone else have an idea? I have to say im getting pretty stumped here.

Under normal operating conditions, one cylinder or another will be on its intake stroke (meaning, an intake valve is open or opening). If they are all closed as you claim and the valve train is intact (cam>sprocket>chain>intermediate shaft), you now have an issue. I've got a feeling you're jumping into a repair procedure w/o preparing yourself with basic research (e.g. replacing chain tensioners, etc.). It's bound to bite you and create other complications. This is not a VW engine.

If you wish to continue, I'd suggest backing off all the valve adjusters on the rocker arms to mitigate valve-to-piston contact, then attempt to rotate the crank. If you get past this stage, start from scratch with the cam timing procedure (no. 1 at TDC, rotate each cam carefully to timing position, etc.) I would do this w/only no. 1 int/exh. rocker arms installed, just to relieve spring tension on the other cam lobes, but the buggered internal hex fasteners on each rocker arm means you'll have to eventually address this issue as well.

MHO,
Sherwood

sherwod.

I think part of my issue is I must not be clear enough when I explain things. My fault. When I say no intake valves are open It is because I either removed the rocker or have backed off the nut so at this point in the cycle there are no valves in the open stages. My goal was to make sure that I could get the engine to revolve freely and get back to TDC 1 so I could set it up correctly. So right now I have either actually removed the rocker or backed off the both intake and exhaust valves to try to make sure I did not have a piston to valve issue do to timing, then to set the timing correctly once and for all. Does that make sense?

so my problem now is not being able to get a fully revolution to get the car back to tdc1 and start setting things up correctly. Any suggestions on how to get the engine to revolve freely would be great.

Thanks

Marc

I forgot the pics..http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1315077470.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1315077513.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1315077545.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1315077570.jpg

I would use that excellent Stomski Racing tool to loosen the cam locking nuts (you have to do it anyway) remove the nuts and the locking pin (if installed). At this point, the cam, rockers, rocker shafts, valves, valve springs, valve spring seats, valve spring retainers, and valve seats are out of the picture (you get my point). Then see if the engine will rotate. If it will not, your problem is in the distributor gears (not likely), the intermediate shaft gears, oil pump gears, or sprockets/cam chain inside the engine - all of which will require you to split the cases or pull a set of cylinders for a look see (you can also see some things from the sump cover.
Also, make sure you are turning the engine in the proper direction (sounds like a dumb thing) but I accidentally turned my engine backwards on the stand and it locked-up. I panicked as you no doubt have. But when I discovered that my engine was upside down and I was turning it backwards, I slowly turned it the right way and everything was fine. It happens.

Mark

911lvr,

I was afraid of this when you first described your chain tensioner replacement. You should not have lost cam timing the way you did it, and I did not think a valve was your issue. You have a mystery on your hands. The only thing I can think of is that the cam chain disappears when it goes around the crank. I wonder if you somehow got a kink in the chain and it is not traveling correctly down where you cannot see it. I'd get a flashlight and try to peer down where the chain goes when you are turning it over.

With the valves all backed off, I'd also turn the engine backward to see if you again stop at the same place in the crank revolution (watch the chain ramps to ensure no damage while you do this). This would point to something jamming in a piston or like others have said, something in the clutch.

Also check the chain ramps to ensure one of them is not binding up. The previous owner - or whoever's rednceck uncle last rebuilt this engine - may have screwed up the chain ramp installation.

This ^^^^^

Also, I was thinking you either had a chain come off a sprocket on the IS or something snag the rotation of the chains....

Can you turn the engine upside down? I have heard of guys getting debris out of their engines this way as a last resort...


Can-o-worms huh?

Well, if you were local I'd come over assist. You'll find the issue...

PS someone should have slapped the PO for all the use of red sealant :eek::eek::eek:

check to be sure the chains are on the intermediate shaft sprockets correctly

I would think that if a chain came off or is kinked, there would be a noticeable change in the chain slack.

in reading through what has been done since the chain tensioner upgrade, i agree that it is probable that there is something going on where the chains mate with the sprockets on the intermediate shaft.

perhaps somebody else can come up with a clever way to examine that area. the only way i know how to do it would be to take off the chain box covers, stick a flashlight in and look at the sprockets.

what sucks is that in my experience the chain tensioner oil lines are single use only: once you tighten them up they deform under load to create the oil tight seal. once they are deformed, they won't seal again. i doubt you can reuse the cover gaskets either.

bummer :(

hello all.. Well I will be back at it today for a bit when I can squeeze it in. Im going to remove the remaining rocker arms.. at this point I might as well since ill be re-timing the cams and everything considering all the messing around I have done with this so far. Also, I have a solution for looking in where the timing chains hit the IS. I think this might help :) I hope I can find something obvious!!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1315142375.jpg

Thanks.. I wish you were local too!! Im about to start begging for someone who is local that might be able to lend a hand.

I took the scope and looked down the opening to where the chain hits the IS gear. I didnt see anything blocking, or the chains moving off the gear. Everything moved smoothly and easily until it stops. im going to go out and remove all the rest of the rockers and see what happens. *SHRUG*

If it's in the cylinder, you should be able to tell which cylinder by pulling the spark plugs, and see which piston is coming up towards tdc. I would assume the one rising towards tdc would be the one with the problem. However, I also would have guessed it to be a problem with the chains, since the problem arose after the tensioners were changed.

ok.. been working so more.. right now all rockers are off except 4 intake and 6 exhaust and its still doing it and when it stops the remaining two are totally loose. Also, I went backwards very very slowly and it stopped in a different place. I been racking my brain and I may be reaching here but i been thinking of all things I did since the compression test. I replaced the orings in the oil cooler, i replaced the oring on the thermostat, I replace the oil sender unit and the oil breather gasket. That is it. The one think I was thinking all though its a long shot is when I took off the valve covers its possible a washer slipped off and fell down an oil tub into the case?? At this point im totally reaching.

I looked down the oil tubes with the scope and didn't see anything blatant. The scope is to big to fit in the cylinders so I cant see in there. not sure where to go from here. Ive flipped the engine 90 degrees in the stand and nothing was rattling. I did it both directions. Something is blocking it. The good news is it looks like I didnt screw it up when I did the tensioners..lol im trying to find some silver lining here. so what now???

This could be the next step:

At this point, remove the remaining rockers, then try rotating the crank. If still no-go, disconnect the cam sprockets from the cams (remove pins, keep chains meshed w/sprockets). This isolates the valve train from the crank. If the crank still doesn't rotate, it isn't because of the valve train since all valves are closed.

How far do you want to go? Next step is to remove the cams and cam boxes, basically gradually stripping the engine down to a long-block, then short block format.

Sherwood