Should I re-charge the R12 in my 86 Carrera?

[86Carrera]

It needs it every couple of years here in So. Calif. I run the system all the time even in winter to keep humidity down in the interior. Never understood the bum rap the 84-89 cars got for their A/C performance. Fully charged on R12 mine has always worked great and been very cold at the vent.

I was never interested in one of those R134a super conversion kits, with all of the over-sized parts, add-ons, belly pans, etc. The cost for parts and labor is outrageous.

And besides mine works just fine so why waste the money. I feel those of you who have had bad performance with the stock system have a simple fix to make as mine works beautifully when fully charged.

So here's the issue... When i went into the shop today ZB my mechanic tells me he can still get R12 but it's getting harder and harder to find. As a result he will have to charge me $60 per pound. He remembered last time my car needed 3 pounds so there's $180 just for the freon.

He gave me a look like "it will be ridiculous for you to spend $200, $300, $400 every 2 years. You have a small leak somewhere". I said I know but i don't want to convert over to R134a the cheap way because it's not as cold as R12. And I don't want to do it the expensive way because refilling every 2 years with R12 would still be much cheaper.

Then he showed me a product for 134 systems called SSR CRYO SEAL "SSR-134a Repair Kit", also goes by "Retrocharge". The magic is that the freon from SSR contains in it sealants that somehow plug the small leaks like the one I have draining my R12 every 2 years.

Question 1: Has anyone used this product and does it really stop your system from losing a change? Does it hurt any of the hoses, seals, driers, evaporators, connectors, etc.?

Question 2: If any of you are familiar with the product do they have one that works with R12?

Question 3: Should I just search for the small leak (I'm guessing it's in one of the long hose running the length of the body) and try to fix it? Or is this too hard to do or so expensive that everyone gives up on it?

Many thanks.
Pete

[Buckeye]

Do not use the leak repair product, it will clog up your expansion valve and when you try to flush your system you will have a mess

Go to a aircondtioner shop and have them use an electronic sniffer to find the leak. Do not switch to 134, it will never work as well

[tharbert]

There is a dye for R12 that allows you to spot leaks. I'd go with that. A well sorted system will not leak at all. With the prices of R12, you could replace every hose and come out ahead.

[T77911S]

3 lbs is about all of it.
go some place that has a "sniffer". check the vents and make sure the evap is not the problem. if the evap is leaking, dye will not help you.
if it is, have the sytem evacuated and you can replace the evap. along with that i would replace the expansion valve and the dryer and replace all the Orings on the lines.
then go on Ebay and buy some R12 and have him pull and vacuum and charge it for you.

[uwanna]

In the "old days" R12 was so cheap and not an environmental problem, that no one had a problem with "topping up your R12" every year or so (in fact, it was sort of a maintenence item) . The old style large rubber hoses were permeable, and even when new leaked out freon but at a very very slow rate. You probably won't find a leak, even with a "sniffer". I think the fix for your dilemma is to replace all your old (26yr old!) AC hoses with the new "barrier hoses" which don't leak (also as a benefit, they are much smaller in diameter). and barring a mechanical leak somewhere else, your R12 should stay put!
Griffiths, as well as several other suppliers, offer complete update hose kits.

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by 86carrera

question 1: Has anyone used this product and does it really stop your system from losing a change? Does it hurt any of the hoses, seals, driers, evaporators, connectors, etc.?

Question 2: If any of you are familiar with the product do they have one that works with r12?

Question 3: Should i just search for the small leak (i'm guessing it's in one of the long hose running the length of the body) and try to fix it? Or is this too hard to do or so expensive that everyone gives up on it?

1. Several years ago MACS (The Mobile Air Conditioning Society) did a study on sealants which concluded they can clog up components. In addition studies also found that when service centers attempted to recover refrigerant from vehicles that had sealants their machines became contaminated. Most service centers do not have sealant identification kits or equipment.

2. We never had much success with additives (things that claim to improve ac performance) or additives. Some DIY's have tried additives and seemed to feel they worked, however the question remains was it the additive or simply a good evacuation and charge: we tend to feel its usually the later.

3. The common leak points, besides 40 feet of stock non barrier hose, are:
A) Compressor nose seal
B) Compressor to deck lid condenser hose
C) 1986-1989 evaporators; they changed the construction in 1986 bonding copper to aluminum and sooner or later they all leak.

If you are comfortable with spending $200-300 per year recharging with R12 that is your choice, however there is plenty of good information here in the forums relative to DIY fixes and product reviews if you want to fix the problem right and for once.

[86Carrera]

Fantastic responses guys many thanks. I know what I will do now.

[PatrickB]

Kuehl~ Being the A/C expert on the Board, I'm surprised you didn't mention the obvious...

The refrigerant is likely depleted every 2 years due to the "NON-BARRIER-HOSES."

One major flaw in the design of the Carrera A/C System! The Barrier Hose upgrade will slow this problem down considerably...

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by PatrickB

Kuehl~ Being the A/C expert on the Board, I'm surprised you didn't mention the obvious... .

Sorry, let me try another dialect

3. Das allgemeine Leck zeigt, außer 40 Fuß des Sperrenschlauches des Vorrates nicht
3. El escape común señala, además de 40 pies de la manguera de la barrera de la acción no
3. Общяя утечка указывает, кроме 40 футов шланга барьера штока non
3. 共同的泄漏除股票非障碍水管的40英尺以外指向，
3. La fuite commune se dirige, sans compter que 40 pieds de tuyau de barrière d'actions non
3. De gemeenschappelijke lekpunten, naast 40 voet de slang van de voorraad niet barrière
3. Τα κοινά σημεία διαρροών, εκτός από 40 πόδια της μάνικας μη εμποδίων αποθεμάτων
3. 共通の漏出は在庫の障壁のホースの40フィートのほかに、非指す
3. O escape comum aponta, além de 40 pés da mangueira da barreira do estoque não
3. The common leak points, besides 40 feet of stock non barrier hose...

That should about cover it globally

[PatrickB]

WoW!

I guess I should have rephrased that, as I saw what you had said...

Perhaps, "the most likely culprit" being the non-barrier hose? In any sense,
can one expect that an original OEM A/C system be running 100% after 26 years of use?
The fact that it still holds refrigerant for 2 years is remarkable! If this is a car that he intends
on keeping for the long term, and desires a reliable A/C system, he should consider upgrading with one of your restoration kits!!!

[86 911 Targa]

As per the previous posts, the sealants are a not-too-good idea.

I upgraded our '86 to the Rennaire Procooler, and High flow evaporator.

Also, re-tuned the console mounted A/C switch for a 10F compressor
shutdown window, thereby eliminating evaporator freeze-up which was the primary issue.

We have very good and highly improved performance, typically 45-50F air
on a 95F day.

Good luck,

Gerry

pm me as needed.

[Eagledriver]

When I lived in Mississippi, I converted my 86 Targa to R134 with a cheapo Walmart kit. I bought a new receiver/dryer at the same time. I drained the oil from the compressor (very little came out). Then put on the new fittings for R134 swaped out the receiver-dryer and refilled with R134 (didn't even evacuate the system). It worked great, even in the Mississippi summer heat. It had a very slight leak (like yours) so I just added a can of R134 every couple of years.

-Andy

[jason2guy]

get a can of r12, can tap and hose on ebay and charge it urself

[DRACO A5OG]

My 2 cents:

Fix/replace hoses. You are in L.A. go to Hose King on Washington BLVD in VERNON and have them make you new hoses with the OEM fitment,just take note of orientation of the fitments then your choice, stick with r12 or update to r134.

On my baby, I repaired the leaking front condensor and replaced the barrier hoses and re-used the original fitment. I went rogue and placed es12a, no license needed and cheap. It is even compatible with both r12 and r134. In fact, it only needs 80% of charge capacity to do the same job as a fully charged r12. In my first attempt, I filled to r12 spec and I got 17 degrees at the center vents, had to reduce to bring up the temps to 32-35 degrees.

If you need a hand, pm me