Looking for some ideas - daughter refuses to do school work

[Rot 911]

I wish I had an answer for you. You are describing our daughter from the fifth grade on. She was neither motivated by reward or punishment. We kept taking things away from her until all she had left in her bedroom was a mattress on the floor. She didn’t care. And there wasn’t any reward that could motivate her for more than 15 minutes. I’d like to say it ended happily, but she is going to be 21 in July and it’s sitting on her butt in her apartment getting the federal unemployment. She thinks everything is just a big joke. And the joke is on us.

I hope your situation ends up better. The only thing I am thankful for is that she lives 400 miles away from us.

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by myamoto1

I know it sounds like the basic kid hates school complaint, but (maybe because I'm going through it) I feel like this is above and beyond the normal hatred towards school.

She is 15 and absolutely refuses to see any value in school. This is not a new COVID mental state, but an escalation of a pre-existing hatred towards school. Even as far back as kindergarten, she hated school. I remember multiple days of the principal literally having to chase her around the parking lot to get her back into the school. Things seemed to calm down a small bit through middle school, but it was still a struggle to get her to do her work.

Most of her friends are the types that will remind the teacher that he/she forgot to assign homework, so I don't feel like it's a "she's in with the wrong crowd" issue. We've brought her to several different counselors over the years, but she has flat out told us that she will only tell the counselor the bare minimum of what they want to hear or refuses to talk all together. Now because of minor rights protections, we can't find out from the counselor if she's making good on her threats.

As long as you're not talking about school or other responsibilities (holding her accountable), she's an awesome kid. However, we can't sit idly by as she fails school and tells us how she doesn't care if she drops out and becomes homeless. My wife and I are at a loss on what to do. Our hearts are broken for her. I feel like we've tried the normal routes, but the school will only minimally engage, counselors don't seem to have an impact and we're at our wit's end.

Get her into private counseling...now! Then consider private schooling. Cindy & I have had a bad experience with a public school high school counselor who was a believer in the crackpot psych of the day...lifespring, I think it was called. Our daughter was basically told that Cindy & I were idiots and she had the right to drop out. Just thinking about it makes me want to take a bat to the bastard counselor for the damage he almost caused.

Government funded schools don't educate..they indoctrinate.

Luckily for us, all turned out well...today she's using her computer skill and her RN license as a consultant, somethingto do with hospitals upgrading records...makes good coin.

[Bill Douglas]

At the age of 15 I got a summer holidays job working in a button factory.

That did the trick.



.

[LWJ]

Ok. More personal experience with my 15 yr old.

I had a case of Covid blahs today. Sort of just felt bland to mildly depressed. Went to see my daughter and she asked how I was. I told her. She made unhappy sounds and gave me a nice hug. Best part of the whole day. Easy.

Suggestion. Can you level (somewhat) with your daughter and bring her into YOUR trouble? Meaning, this is making you ill with worry.

A pretty nuanced conversation. And, you want to practice, script it some. It may be if she knows her issues are weighing hard on you, that you can problem solve together?

But be gentle. This is a thin skinned child!!!

[fintstone]

Be judicious about taking things and privileges from them expecting them to respond like you would...and maybe did as a youngster. It may not work...and if it doesn't work, eventually you run out of things to take. Then, by definition, they have nothing to lose (or believe they do not). You do not want that situation as it is oddly empowering...and could empower them to act out in a more extreme and more dangerous way. This can result in new risky behaviors. Goal oriented rewards with lots of small successes may work better. The end result must just be relatively real to them an relative short termed. While teens are past the tree house/fort building stage, what could work for a young man might be building a car or motorcycle for them over time (as a series of projects)...if that interested them. Maybe for a young woman, it might be a foreign language that results in a trip to that place with a friend or dance or music lessons that end in some sort prom or possible demonstration. Maybe start prepping for a marathon with a goal to run at Boston as a unranked participant (and accompanying fun trip). We all want to be the star of our own little production in life, whatever that is. Most probably just seem out of reach to teens....especially now.

[GH85Carrera]

Since I have no kids I am a world class expert in parenting, and I have a briefcase!

I have no answers or suggestions. I honestly can't imagine that situation of overwhelming laziness. I understood at a young age that it was nice to have money. I mowed yards until I was 16, then got a real job. As soon as I was out of high school I had a full time job, and a side gig making almost as much on the weekends.

Good luck. Hopefully something will motivate her to get off her butt and make something of herself. Seeing other people drive nice cars and go on vacations and live in nice homes was enough motivation for me. Eating good food was a primary motivation to me.

[Superman]

Would she do homework to get her phone back?

[berettafan]

I don't have answers but wanted to say i appreciate you posting and commiserate with you on the frustration over counselors not sharing with parents.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by LWJ

Ok. More personal experience with my 15 yr old.

I had a case of Covid blahs today. Sort of just felt bland to mildly depressed. Went to see my daughter and she asked how I was. I told her. She made unhappy sounds and gave me a nice hug. Best part of the whole day. Easy.

Suggestion. Can you level (somewhat) with your daughter and bring her into YOUR trouble? Meaning, this is making you ill with worry.

A pretty nuanced conversation. And, you want to practice, script it some. It may be if she knows her issues are weighing hard on you, that you can problem solve together?

But be gentle. This is a thin skinned child!!!

I wonder if this would be unwise if there is depression in the mix?

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Since I have no kids I am a world class expert in parenting, and I have a briefcase!

I have no answers or suggestions. I honestly can't imagine that situation of overwhelming laziness. I understood at a young age that it was nice to have money. I mowed yards until I was 16, then got a real job. As soon as I was out of high school I had a full time job, and a side gig making almost as much on the weekends.

Good luck. Hopefully something will motivate her to get off her butt and make something of herself. Seeing other people drive nice cars and go on vacations and live in nice homes was enough motivation for me. Eating good food was a primary motivation to me.

It is good to eat (and have a warm place to stay). That was my motivation when young..as was seeing others that had more, and the possibilities that accompanied education and hard work were certainly alluring. Where I lived, young ladies were just not very interested in the poor/loser class...or boys that seemed poorly inclined to work/learn...and I liked young ladies. Then, as an adult...my wife was stricter and had higher expectations than my parents (as well as a much better rewards system). Given a different situation and my own devices (with the current welfare state), I would have spent my life sleeping until noon and playing basketball all day.

[myamoto1]

Wow all - I'm overwhelmed by all of the advice! Thank you! To touch on a few points/suggestions:
- the wife and I are 95% on the same page. only thing we go back and forth on is the "level" of tough love, when we're trying that approach. For a short bit, I was all for taking away dance, but my wife convinced me that it is our daughter's happy place and (especially with COVID) one of the only places she gets to be social with friends.
- outside of the schoolwork, she's awesome to be around. I'll come downstairs and she'll have the entire pantry pulled apart to reorganize it, or will have vacuumed or mopped the floor. She can't wait to decorate for holidays or birthdays. She just made her grandmother and amazing home made cake from scratch.
- bullying.... she has experienced that a bit in the past (3-4yrs ago) from one of her childhood friends. They also danced together. She was super mature about the whole thing and refused to stop dancing at the same studio, just because of the "issue". Both girls were even in some of the same dances. She worked through it and the two of them have been friends again for the past 2+ years.
- me at 15. Yeah, I hated school, but realized that if I wanted to afford what the things I liked, I had to at least make it through school. I did the bare minimum to pass, until boarding school. With a forced 2hr mandatory (no talking, no distractions) study hall, every night, I finally caved in and started trying. Grades went up, and so did my enjoyment of school.

I've also been gainfully employed since the age of 11 (paper route) Before that, I used to sell things at our garage sale every year and even bought my first bike (age 6) on my own for $5. I guess that's part of why it's so hard for me to see her appear so unmotivated. I get that in general that success or failure in high school doesn't really define what you'll do in life, but I do feel like it helps establish a foundation. If she was more motivated and driven on activities outside of school, I'd be (slightly) less worried.

[myamoto1]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

Might as well get used to it if you don't want to get with the program.
Welfare and a job at Mcdonald's are always available.

We've gone down this path, along with driving past many of the homeless camps around Portland and she seems fine (at least on the outside) with that lifestyle. It's hard not to take is personal. I know we're putting our wants and hopes on her, but honestly I feel like it's because she refuses to define any of her own. I don't count being homeless or striving to work as a burger flipper as a hope or want.

[Rusty Heap]

have you shown her the monthly bills of rent/mortgage, utilities, food, entertainment? Many kids have no clue how much it "costs" on a monthly/weekly basis........break it down per day, and show here how far she could survive on McDonalds wages.

Go to school, get an education, get a career not a job, and your dreams can come true, or you can work till your 70 and never have extra money.

[Tervuren]

At fourteen I knew everything.
At fifteen I realized I didn't.
At sixteen I filled in the gaps, and knew everything again.

I've had this repeat a few times, to know, nope, not every gonna know everything.

Are your expectations for your daughter the same as if she had been your son?
Because for a female, there are succesful life options beyond employed workplace career.
if the skills are there to raise kids, care for yard, garden, farm, kitchen, home, etc, pursueing those over school is not a bad life path.

[myamoto1]

Originally Posted by Tervuren

Are your expectations for your daughter the same as if she had been your son?

We also have a 13yr old son. Expectations for both of them are the same. Find your passion, work hard and don't get hung up on the details. We don't require or expect straight A's or anything along those lines. We expect them to do their best, know that asking others for help is healthy and expected. We also tell them that school isn't the most important thing (it's up there at this stage of their life), but they do need to balance it with social and life activities. Balancing these activities, is a driver behind why we haven't used dance as a "corrective lever" with her.

Rusty - I haven't done the "full math" with her, but I've tried to explain the cost of living. It may be worth a revisit.

[Tervuren]

Something to consider is a lot of schools now have graded questions that are non academic.
Is it possible she got all the academic stuff right and is getting frustrated with not being at or near 100%?

Do you have access to her graded questions and answers?
You should.
If a school isn't open on what is being graded that is not a good sign.

[McLovin]

Tough situation, best of luck to you and your daughter.
Outside of a physical/mental issue that can be corrected, I think at 15 kids are a cake that is getting pretty close to being baked, as far as parenting goes.
I’d go against the tide a bit and say that at this point, her education isn’t very important. Nor are her grades. She’s not on an academic path and it’s highly highly unlikely she ever will be.
In the end it won’t matter. If she goes to school after high school, it should be to a community college first, rather than the third rate 4 year schools she would get in to. If she at that point is half way serious she can transfer.
I’m a pragmatist.
So:
(1) I’d focus on keeping a good relationship with her.
(2) I’d focus on her building her self esteem and self worth. Because that’s what’s most important for her. That determines the kind of people she hangs around with, and the kind of guys she dates and ultimately marries. And that is what is going to be the biggest factor, by far, in determining the course/trajectory of her life.

[john70t]

Some of my reflections of my own youth for comparison:
I'm suspecting I had a bit of depression, learning disorder or autism, and/or OCD as a child. Probably still do to a degree. Definitely a crappy memory in many ways but with some things it was exceptional. I could not learn a new thing unless it was fully based on something real and tangible. Computers and programming were fascinating, but mentally linking the code language to real hardware function was like crossing a mental abyss unless it started with the concept of it being plugged in. Without that, every new bit of information was like the background noise of a superficial party. No substance. Just vapor information not even worth hearing.

Some of the childhood things I really wanted to be involved in turned into mental blockages and scarred feelings of failure:
1). I always wanted to play the violin, but the kindergarten teacher assigned me a cello instead. I couldn't carry a cello twice my size several miles back and forth to school every day dodging HS bullies walking the other way. The 50lbs of books already did the back in.

2). I joined the wrestling team in 7th grade but suddenly got sucker punched hard in the stomach by the 9th grader star wrestler in the hallway before class, for no reason. I was just standing there in the crowd and got nailed. Ran away crying. I'd had the flu and puked several times that morning and didn't even think I'd make it through regular school that day. When I went back to the next wrestling class the coach pointed me out, made me stand up and basically called me a little beach in front of the group. I was a pretty strong kid and thought about staying and putting both of them to shame but decided against it. Instead of fighting I left.
And that was the end of another major hobby.

3). I loved swimming and biked to the pool during the summer for the team, but dad was mostly absent and mom took her control issues out on the only male left around inside the house. Lucy with the football would be a cupcake compared to those times. When there was anything I started really getting into, and I do mean anything, she would make sure it was stopped right away. If I was drawing, reading, or even doing homework the dishes need to be done right away. If I was trying to fix my bicycle or building something the lawn needed to be cut right now, or some other reason. No relaxing or enjoyment was allowed.
Even a few years ago it was the same. We were coming back from Florida (with her driving in a pouring rainstorm and myself sleeping in the back seat), and while passing in between two semis in a white fog she turns fully around and yells "Are you sleeping?" She wouldn't turn forward until I answered properly.
Dinnertime was always an interrogation session, she was a lawyer, and anything said could and most definitely would be used against us in the future. I still dream of the stomping up the stairs bursting the bedroom door wide open followed by criticism of something previous. Any time day or night. There was no escape.
My sister fought her with extended screaming sessions and became successful. I regressed inward.
So the swim team also got taken away eventually.

4). In summery of the above:
As a youth I thought no one really listened to what I really wanted to say. And that requires a proper relaxed environment where it can be possible. This absolutely requires a "safe environment". No judgement. No blame. Just put the pieces out there and find them all. Communication is a two-way street and she needs to be able to express her angst while it is possible to mend. The real subconscious issues are deep and will only come out into the open when it is safe. Those are the inner voices which guide a person's long term behavior with self esteem throughout their entire lifetime, and through so many different events and situations. Most often they are covered up for life like a cyst. You can force upon another certain temporary behaviors but you can't force well being.

I grew up in the 1980's as a rebel against everything but I'm sure kids these days are dealing with much more difficult issues. Now there is pure chaos and a lot of hate in the mixed-messaging forced upon kids these days. As a decent childhood artist I stopped drawing when I believed the only future jobs available were only corporate advertising. I also believed that all companies were corporations. And all corporations were evil. That was the message during those times.
It was mostly wrong, of course. Everything has a function. Even the bad.

Learning anything new is always a cross-platform exercise which solely benefits the individual.
And combining ideas is the future...!!!
Those people are teaching essential things incorrectly, but that shouldn't devalue the concepts in any way.
Once long ago, people living in truly horrid primitive conditions spent years creating those higher forms of thought and advancement which we consider a given.
Honor them instead.
------------------------------

My advice:
Although I severely dislike the cults of Scientology and NVC('non violent communication') they do emphasis some good techniques:
1) Scientology sez when you hit your thumb with a hammer, keep hitting it until it doesn't hurt anymore. Go over it again and again until the brain is not affected and you are not afraid of it anymore or flinch.

2). NVC sez to listen to what another person and then repeat it back to them. "So my understanding is that you are saying A and B and C. Is that correct? Could you explain to me more?" It's a method of lying basically. You don't have to agree with the person but you can make them show you all their emotional cards without revealing you own opinion. It also subconsciously slides you into the position of dominance in the conversation.

3) When I put my dog outside on a nice day he looks sad like he's being rejected. So give him some love and maybe a treat outside. Now being outside is a good thing. Other things to explore. Positive reinforcement resets his mindset. That works with people as well. Sometimes humans are smart enough to figure out who created the original unpleasant situation.

4). The family should go for walks and just spend good time together relaxed. Let your daughter decide where to go and give her control as an adult. Go for walks around her school and show her it's just a small piece of land, a small building, and occasionally she has to deal with some crappy people there. Just like everyone else. The world is much bigger than that.

5). You and her mother will have to do some changing as well. Skip the blame and expectations and walls. Learn to bite your tongue and accept her as a young adult who will make 'mistakes'. You both need to create a neutral mental playing ground where everyone can co-exist as a family. That will last longer and be more important than anything else in her entire life.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by myamoto1

However, we can't sit idly by as she fails school and tells us how she doesn't care if she drops out and becomes homeless.

No one who understands the reality of being truly homeless makes a statement like this.

She knows that it won't happen to her, because her parents won't let it happen.

[Crowbob]

It sounds like the young lady likes to be in charge and nobody’s gonna change it.

Harsh? Yes.

She seems to have chosen to rebel against what she thinks is the universal truth-that an education is important.

She’ll probably come around but on her own terms only. Coercion will probably backfire and the slightest hint of an ‘I told you so’ will result in regression.

Don’t burn any bridges.