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BOV with short neck IC - UPDATED W/PICTS

Well guys, ol' Gimpy here has finally healed enough to where I can stand on a concrete floor for most of the day....so I started my modern BOV retrofit/stock recirc. valve delete - with the intentions of keeping my shortneck intercooler and scabbing all the parts I need from what remains of the air plenum after being thoroughly hacked up on my cutoff saw.

The picture is just the basic layout to give you the general idea of how it will all hook up. This will include deleting the deacelleration valve (the golden flying saucer of ill repute), and I'll be using it's attachment point to the old (and now sawed off) recirc. manifold as the new feed to the BOV to redirect boost. The BOV itself will be mounted to what's left of the turbo feed pipe coupler (where the left side of the IC usually mounts). Cut a couple of plates from the old manifold, to weld up to the holes where I cut the other parts off. Also relocated the overboost switch to right next to the boost gauge sender unit. I don't have the shi.t to weld magnesium, so will farm that out next week. Still have to fabricate a couple of IC mounts and cap off a couple hoses from the decel valve and route a vacuum hose to the BOV...but hey, piece of cake!

More pictures to come as she comes together.

P.S. I've got piles of magnesium dust from all the grinding I did. You would be amazed how flamable that stuff is. I took a pinch and dropped it from above onto my Bic lighter, and promptly was momentarily blinded and smoked my fingers! Good incendiary stuff!

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Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.

Last edited by mark houghton; 12-31-2009 at 02:09 PM..
Old 12-28-2009, 05:25 PM
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OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
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Interesting project. Let us know how it works out.
Old 12-28-2009, 06:24 PM
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Looks like it'll work but that hose is really small ID... you should use one that is bigger and fits over the OD of the hose flange on the BOV to flow more air.

It might be easier to make a hole in the back of the intercooler and have someone tig weld a piece of aluminum tube to use as a hose connection on the back of it.

Then you could still run the hose you have in that picture to your deceleration valve or a second blow off valve and experiment with venting it to atmosphere or back into the motor.

that pic cracks me up for some reason...
Old 12-28-2009, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
Looks like it'll work but that hose is really small ID... you should use one that is bigger and fits over the OD of the hose flange on the BOV to flow more air.

It might be easier to make a hole in the back of the intercooler and have someone tig weld a piece of aluminum tube to use as a hose connection on the back of it.

Then you could still run the hose you have in that picture to your deceleration valve or a second blow off valve and experiment with venting it to atmosphere or back into the motor.

that pic cracks me up for some reason...
Hey Jim, it's like a Fred Flinstone thing, dontchaknow?

I just happend to have a really nice hose with stainless steel wire wrap through it, and it just happend to fit the ID of the BOV. Yeah, I would lose a little flow vs. using a larger diam. hose to fit the OD of the valve, but then the issue is with the other end....with the stock decel valve hose mounting point being too small for a larger hose. I guess I could punch that hose barb out and enlarge the hole and weld in a larger nipple. Obviously I'm not done with the R&D yet as there are lots of ways to skin this cat. I'm trying to stay away from welding things onto my IC unless absolutely necessary.
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Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.

Last edited by mark houghton; 12-29-2009 at 12:37 AM..
Old 12-28-2009, 07:06 PM
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That's neat!
Look at the size of the stock hose that connects the BOV to the stock intake, maybe you can re-use it.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 12-28-2009, 08:13 PM
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Way to go McGeiver.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 12-29-2009 at 08:56 AM..
Old 12-28-2009, 08:34 PM
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Hey Mark,
Yeh you need to be careful with that magnesium! Had a friend fill a refrigerator box full of magnesium shavings he collected from a machine shop. On a 4th of July he though it was a good idea to throw a road flare into the box while it was sitting under high tension power lines.
Damn thing looked & sounded like a Saturn 5 rocket, flames shot up 60' and melted the insulation off the power lines.
Bonneville power was not impressed!
Mark
Old 12-29-2009, 08:34 AM
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Can we blowoff to the 2nd conector in back of the ic next to the aav?
If anyone can do mod my stock bov for a fee pm me
Thanks
erick
Old 12-30-2009, 10:33 AM
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Update from Mark's Flinstone garage

Just an update....pictures tell a thousand words. All that's left is to get someone to do the Tig welding for me.

Hacked off the intake end of the secondary manifold. Pulled out the hose nipple where the decel valve attached and greatly enlarged the ID of the hole to 1"...to accomodate the 1" hose going to the BOV. Bored a new hole to mount the nipple for attachment of the decel valve which will most likely be left to vent to atmosphere. Also drilled and tapped a hole to mount the overboost switch.


Hacked off the hose coupler and will weld on a plate and the nipple for the BOV to attach to. Will enable the use of the stock IC mounting point, with later addition of supporting brackets.


How she all lines up.


One more, with the decel valve in place.


Once on the car, I'll shoot a final round of pictures. All this work, and what will I really benefit other than loosing a few pounds of weight? Oh well, hope this helps others as an option to keeping their shortneck IC and updating to a modern BOV. The only parts cost has to do with the new BOV, a couple of copper elbows, an 8" piece of 1" heater hose, and some hose clamps.
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Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 12-31-2009, 11:45 AM
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Like what you're doing but you're getting closer to having what you started out to eliminate. One big advantage with the long neck is that 965 rubber elbow assembly. It can be easily removed allowing access to cylinder #1 which is the biggest issue on a 930 to reach.
I don't think you will need any extra bracket to secure the stock IC connection point as the rubber elbow should support it just fine. That will allow for quicker removal of the assembly. Give that a try as you can always add a bracket later if need be.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 12-31-2009, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Like what you're doing but you're getting closer to having what you started out to eliminate. One big advantage with the long neck is that 965 rubber elbow assembly. It can be easily removed allowing access to cylinder #1 which is the biggest issue on a 930 to reach.
I don't think you will need any extra bracket to secure the stock IC connection point as the rubber elbow should support it just fine. That will allow for quicker removal of the assembly. Give that a try as you can always add a bracket later if need be.
Thanks for that. Yeah, about all I'm really gaining is a little less room for air volume by replacing a big chunk of magnesium in favor of a short 1" hose. Theoretically boost will build a bit quicker, not having to fill up the entire secondary manifold.

I could drop off the stock boost gauge sender (since I also have on board a separate gauge), and don't necessarily have to have the decel valve. I understand the benefit of the 965 elbow and easier access to #1 cylinder, but understand that removing the cast coupler in my case will be easy, because the BOV itself is removable from the welded-on mount by three small setscrews. Then it's just two hoseclamps and the hoses/coupler come off.

So, I'm doing this because it's the recommended thing to do, but am I really going to gain anything performance wise, other than maybe a faster actuating BOV?

If I don't like it, I'm out only $50 for the manifold I cut up and will just re-install the spare I have .
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Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 12-31-2009, 02:37 PM
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All that's left is to get someone to do the Tig welding for me.
I have zero experience welding mag., but I do know a nice little place that does subcontracted aerospace stuff that welds cracked fan housings for me. Too bad its here is so cal and you're in Washington.

Looks great though!
Old 12-31-2009, 02:39 PM
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Shadetree engineering -completed

OK boys and girls, the project is finally completed. For the skeptics, no scoffing allowed (I make things functional, not necessarily pretty). This entire project was aimed toward going with the updated BOV and dropping some unnecessary weight (like maybe 3 lbs!), cleaning up the engine bay, improving access to the internal nether-lands previously verboten, and allowing people with shortneck IC's and limited budgets to achieve the update without laying down another grand for a longneck IC or having to weld anything on to their intercooler.

Pictures tell a thousand words. I had to do a lot of custom stuff to get all the necressary vacuum and boost connection points, but all in all it was pretty simple. I'm keeping the decell valve, but it will vent to atmosphere now instead of to the intake manifold (though I could route it back to the manifold if desired). Vacuum source for the new BOV is the same source as the stock recirc valve...I just had to fabricate a nipple to attach to the hose. Other nipples were build to acccomodate my aftermarket boost gauge sender and my MSD boost retard ignition module, and some drilling and tapping to mount the stock overboost switch. Napa Auto parts and Ace hardware supplied all that I needed.

What have I really gained? Hell, I don't know, but it's been fun. It will be awhile yet before I can fire her up, weather permitting, but I'm expecting about a 75 hp increase. That should put me to about 440 hp with CIS, all for the cost of some plumbing parts and some hacking and mangling ( PS: PM me if you want to buy the bridge I have for sale). And if it gives me problems, I still have a complete recirc manifold to go back to stock if wanted.






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Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 01-24-2010, 08:00 PM
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Very well done my man!!!!!!

I take every bad thing I've ever said about you,,,,,,, well; almost all of them.

Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 01-25-2010, 06:12 PM
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Very well done my man!!!!!!

I take every bad thing I've ever said about you,,,,,,, well; almost all of them.

Cole
Thankyou sir! What with all the hoses and wires and crap laying all over the place, looks pretty messy but you'll never see the dissaray when the IC is back in place. But it's original and non-conventional, fits me to a tee.

Now "while I'm in there", I think I'll remove my old Andial enrichment gizzmo and sell it to anyone who needs it, and perhaps pull the plugs and go one point colder (running 7's, will go to 8's). And, dial in a bit more timing retard onset to my MSDBTM (like 5 psi, vs. the 2 that I've had since the start). And, if I get really enthusiastic, I'll bolt up the K27 7200 in place of the 7006, and....and....install the HKS boost controller (and a .4 spring on my Tial WG) so I can dial in whatever death fits the mood. And, perhaps I'll get super motivated to replace the drivers door latch mechanism that's never been quite right (I shudder with the thought of taking the entire window mechanism out to do this).

See, it's true - it just never ends.
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Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 01-25-2010, 07:16 PM
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Hey Earl,

I reinstalled all the window crap and frames not so long ago. If you move the window all the way down and slide the frame out of the door you should be able
to unhook the glass from the carrier and take it out the top. Once the glass is out
you can get to the door latch with the regulator and motor assy. still in the door.
For a man of your extraordinary mechanical ability it should be a piece of cake.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 01-25-2010, 09:02 PM
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very impressive mark!
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Old 01-26-2010, 04:56 AM
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Congrats!!!

Great write-up and reward!


Walt
Old 01-26-2010, 05:54 AM
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Ok fellow Porschaholics, just to put closure to this thread I started awhile back. We made the maiden voyage today...52 degrees and sunny ouside, just a perfect test day.

Fired the beast up...and she ran like dog doo. Missing something terrible. I would recommend that nobody follow the plans I've laid out for this modification.

Oh...but WAIT!!!.....further diagnostics showed the coil wire pulled loose from the cap (it was arching at least two inches through the air and into the cap somehow; surprised she ran at all!!). Plugged that bad dog back in and....she idled at around 1800 stone cold. Much higher than my normal 1200 or so pre-modification.

Well, it turned out that the AAR just hadn't heated up enough, but still idling high after warm. Why, you might ask? Well, because I upped my static timing from 8 degrees to 12-13. A quick air correction/idle screw adjustment took care of that.

Now for the ride. First, the extra timing advance made a noticeable difference (for your MSD BTM dudes, I have the retard onset set at 5 psi, with 2 degrees per psi being shaved off. Safe setting, will actually put me at less advance once full boost is achieved than stock settings. May play with that later....).

Peformance perceptions? Low end power curve is improved with the extra timing. Nothing doggy about the pre-boost performance, boost lag between gears is almost non-existent and boost onset is quicker (full boost by3600, vs. 3800 prior), and that with a 7006 turbo. And with the AAV disconnected from the intake manifold and venting to atmosphere instead, rpms drop instantly when shifting. AFR's have changed (drop to around 10.5 momentarily when shifting...as expected) since no additional air is being injected via the AAV. None of this is bad stuff. The only other weird thing I noticed is that when abruptly getting off a steady 2500 rpm cruise, the AFR's lean way out to about 16.5. Back on the gas, and they settle back into the normal 14.2. AFR's on full boost haven't changed any (still in the high 11's low 12's, just where I want them. All this at .8 bar, since I haven't hooked up my new boost controller yet.

All is good, about peed my pants with the first ride of the year. Happy with the mods so far. One final picture attached to show the bracket I fabricated to stiffen up the left hand IC mount.
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Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 02-21-2010, 01:28 PM
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That's good to read, Mark - very cool project that I have followed from the start! One question: did you notice any increase in off throttle "popping and crackling" with your newly routed decel valve? I removed mine about six months ago when it failed and the increase in decel noise is quite pronouned . . .
Old 02-21-2010, 01:45 PM
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