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With a typical motor that dose not have variable cam, intake, or exhaust phasing or boost tapered by rpm the area where the motor makes it's most acceleration is arguably about 1500 rpm wide in most cases.

The 930 transmission has two significant issues.

1) First gear is on the tall side. This it mostly relevant to street drivability or drag starts. Thus if full boost is at 3500rpm we are at about 27 mph before we start to really get going. Put in a 915 and we are going to be going about 20mph.

2) The RPM drop between gears and especially first to second with about a 2700rpm drop, puts us in a lower part of the power range than comparable cars.


930 rpm drops:
2nd, 2700rpm at 53 mph
3rd, 1900 at 94 mph
4th 1800 at 137mph
red line at 197 mph.

915 rpm drops:
2868 at 40mph.
1890 at 70mph
1345 at 95 mph
1368 at 120 mph
Red line at 155 mph

All are approximations.

If we could just tighten up the first to second rpm drop to 2000rpm our Power/weight ratio at the shift point would increase about 30%.

Last edited by 911st; 02-28-2010 at 10:45 AM..
Old 02-28-2010, 10:39 AM
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Maybe just putting a lower R&P in would be enough for most.

This could greatly improve the first issue. That and setting a motor up for full boost at 3000rpm.

It might also move the issue with the large 1st to 2nd RPM drop down to a lower speed and to where we are some what traction limited anyway. This way the larger drop in power that comes at about 50mph with the 1st to 2nd shift will not hurt us as much.

This would lower the freeway cruse rpm which might be looked at.

r
Old 02-28-2010, 10:54 AM
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It was probably mentioned above, but torque tells you the torque at the crank (duh).

At a given road speed hp tells you a number proportional to the torque at the wheels, which I care a lot more about.
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Old 02-28-2010, 10:56 AM
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I like these threads as they let me spit ball so to speak and it helps me learn.

I am starting to think that instead of trying to replace 2 or 3 gears in a 930 or putting in a shortened G50, just putting in a lower R&P might be a cost favorable way toward a significant improvement. (Nothing new, others have been doing for years. Just know I better understand what is happening.)

If a stock 930 is as follows:

2nd, 2700rpm at 53 mph
3rd, 1900 at 94 mph
4th 1800 at 137mph
red line at 197 mph.

To something like this:
42mph
75mph
109mph
157mph

Full boost if at 3500rpm would move from 27mph to 21.5mph.

If full boost is then dropped to 3000rpm it would come in at about 18mph.
Old 02-28-2010, 11:05 AM
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Driveability will increase as boost threshold rpm decreases. Get your threshold down below 2000rpm and 1.0bar in by 2600rpm and the world changes. Those parameters at 400WHP fit the stock 4spd pretty well for most applications.
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Old 02-28-2010, 11:06 AM
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Yes, yes. Great point. Earlier boost threshold can help with the first issue of off the line drive-ability.

Still have the problem with the 1st to 2nd drop in power under full acceleration if we do not address the large RPM drop or move it to a lower speed where is dose not hurt us.

All good stuv
Old 02-28-2010, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
+1 copbait
---

Brian,

As to TQ/weight, I understand what is being said. I might not think it is technically proper to describe a built motor as 'making torque'.

However it is a 'generally accepted term' to describe a motor where the cams are timed and the other factors of the motor are tuned to make power lower in the RPM range. This type of motor is much more drivable and responsive in daily driving.

Ergo, I surrender said argument to differences in vocabulary.
This is not a difference of vocabulary. It's the proper usage of terms regarding the Laws of Physics.

For someone who evangelizes the "VE" of an engine all over this site, suddenly HP is the name of the game. VE is one of the key components of torque generation. Torque is the essence of power, in this case, horsepower.

Power (P), in general terms, is defined as;

P = (Force[a.k.a torque] x distance)/time

Acceleration (a) is defined, in general terms, as;

a= Force(a.k.a. torque) /m (mass of a body)

Do you see the interdependency between the two (Force and acceleration) ?

What Brian was explaining with "TQ/weight" is the definition of Acceleration. It can't be redefined....this is one of Newton's Laws of Physics.
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Old 02-28-2010, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Yes, yes. Great point. Earlier boost threshold can help with the first issue of off the line drive-ability.

Still have the problem with the 1st to 2nd drop in power under full acceleration if we do not address the large RPM drop or move it to a lower speed where is dose not hurt us.

All good stuv
Again, a transmission is a Torque multiplier. If shifting to a higher gear causes the engine RPM to go into a region of lower Torque, rate of acceleration decreases.
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Old 02-28-2010, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK I View Post
With the torque of these cars under boost, they really don't need another gear.
[/I][/B]. LOL!
So true. Dave, I know you are a sharp guy. Don't take offense, I ask you to analyze your statement. It is common to turboing.
"With the torque of these cars under boost, they really don't need another gear."
Turbo engine systems are great, but they are root of this problem. Most street driving is 90-95% off boost, so this is your starting point.
The major driver to building boost is the exhaust flow generated by increasing engine RPM. Forget pulse and rotor inertia, these are minor. We call it "bootstrapping". To get flow you need flow, compounding. Low weight and gearing improve this situation.
Old 02-28-2010, 01:43 PM
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Guess we are still going there.

Increase your torque peak 10% and acceleration increase can approach 10%.

Increase the Torque peak 10% and do so at a 10% higher rpm point and you acceleration increase can approach 20%.

Of course we need to increase TQ if we can and have the budget for it.

There is a direct relationship between TQ and HP. However, HP also has the component of time where TQ is an event. HP is the torque and how many times we can avail ourselves to it in a given time period.

For us building a motor studying the TQ curve can give us many good clues. The best is how efficient our motor is. VE is much more related to TQ than it is to HP. Knowing the displacement of one's motor one can pretty much derive what VE level a motor is running at. The point where a normally aspirated motor's TQ peaks is where the cam's, headers and other factor come to together and work there best. With a turbo motor we have to factor in the actual level of boost as boost then becomes the factor that most effects VE. Watching changes in a TQ curve can tell us where the turbo onset is, where the wast gate starts to open, where performance starts to fall off and a few other things I am sure.

TQ is power. However, it is just the power of one event. This power must be multiplied over a period of time to be of use to us toward acceleration. One can take 200# and multiply it by 3000 time in a minute and make 172hp. Or you can multiply it by 6000 times and make twice that or 344hp. The more times you can multiply in in a given space of time the more power or HP you have.

Many people call a transmission a "torque multiplier". This is true. Another way to think of it is it is a lever. A lever multiplies force.

Again, we have the event (power strokes of one revolution or TQ), how many times in a minute we can do so (HP), and a lever (ergo, transmission "ratios").

Last edited by 911st; 02-28-2010 at 02:49 PM..
Old 02-28-2010, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copbait73 View Post
So true. Dave, I know you are a sharp guy. Don't take offense, I ask you to analyze your statement. It is common to turboing.
"With the torque of these cars under boost, they really don't need another gear."
Turbo engine systems are great, but they are root of this problem. Most street driving is 90-95% off boost, so this is your starting point.
The major driver to building boost is the exhaust flow generated by increasing engine RPM. Forget pulse and rotor inertia, these are minor. We call it "bootstrapping". To get flow you need flow, compounding. Low weight and gearing improve this situation.
Absolutely no offense taken. I absolutely agree with your statement.
I have and 8:41 R&P in the 930trans cause I really don't care about top speed. If anything would be changed, it would be 1st gear because it is too low. Great for long clutch life, but not much else. I would then have a close ratio 4 speed that wouldn't be so annoying driving around town.
But we have to keep in mind why so many new cars have more gears.......that ugly acronym, EPA, wanting more and more MPG's, lower emissions. They would be just as much fun with 5 or even 4 speeds with the flat torque curves the water-pumpers possess.
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Old 02-28-2010, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Guess we are still going there..........................

............................edit for space.................


Nope, not me. I give up. Make up your own Laws of Keith.
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Old 02-28-2010, 03:37 PM
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Dave.

Guess I am spitting into the wind. But not with out lack of good intentions.

Maybe some day I will come up with the right words or even discover my errors.

For now maybe this will will help.

Why is a diesel with so much more TQ slower than a Gas motor with half as much TQ but more HP?

Also, why is a HD 1200 with 80# of TQ with 5 gears so much slower than a 1 liter sport bike with the same TQ, about twice the HP, and 6 gears go almost twice a fast?

As to gears, why did sports cars get more gears sooner than passenger cars?

Porsche turbos went from 4 to 5 to 6 gears as the TQ band got flatter and flatter and the HP numbers got higher and higher.

Anyway, if your first is to short a taller one could make a significant improvement in your acceleration under 100 mph if you have enough traction.


May your car get faster, faster, and never let you down.
Old 02-28-2010, 04:47 PM
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"Why is a diesel with so much more TQ slower than a Gas motor with half as much TQ but more HP?"

You mean like an Audi ALMS Diesel LMP1 car with the same HP as Acura LMP1 gasoline but more torque? There is no car on the planet that charges harder out of the corners than the LMP1 Diesel's from Peugeot and Audi. So your argument doesn't hold up there.

"lso, why is a HD 1200 with 80# of TQ with 5 gears so much slower than a 1 liter sport bike with the same TQ, about twice the HP, and 6 gears go almost twice a fast?"

You think that HD weighs the same as 1liter GSX-R? Your argument doesn't hold up there either. Even then, the HD is quicker off the line than the GSX-R.....not unless the GSX-R driver fries his tires.

"As to gears, why did sports cars get more gears sooner than passenger cars?"
"Porsche turbos went from 4 to 5 to 6 gears as the TQ band got flatter and flatter and the HP numbers got higher and higher."

EPA test cycles for one.......why do you think the C-5 Corvettes got 6 speeds? .All to improve CAFE numbers. Talk to any Corvette owner and ask them what they think of 6 speeds. Ask any Porsche 911 Turbo owner is more exciting to accelerate, the 996 turbo or the 930 turbo. A lot of them think the Tiptronic is just as much fun as the 6 speed. It is that boring, even though the 996 turbo is quicker.

"Anyway, if your first is to short a taller one could make a significant improvement in your acceleration under 100 mph if you have enough traction."

You're preaching to the choir, my friend.


Keith, I'm sure you're a great guy, but man, you just can't go around and start redefining everything because it make sense to you. These practices and formulas have been around a very long, long, long time. Newton's Law has been around for centuries. Porsche drivetrains are no different than any other car manufacturers, just different in how they're executed. Same laws apply, even to Porsche. Sorry, Ferry.
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Old 02-28-2010, 05:19 PM
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Dave,

Missed this one.

Not trying to beat you, just enjoying the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK I View Post
..."TQ/weight" is the definition of Acceleration. It can't be redefined....this is one of Newton's Laws of Physics.
If this were true then why don't most racing sanctioning bodies use TQ/weight.

Instead they use HP/weight or more specifically -- lbs / HP.

Check out PCA.org's club racing rules. They go to great effort to class different Porsche years and car types together in classes based solely on lbs/HP.

Not sure about the following but here goes in the sake of learning:

Thus something like -- Car Weight/((Torque x RPM)/5220)) = Acceleration Potential.

The 5220 number is just an arbitrary factor to determine the size of the Horse to be used by all.

Thus-- Car Weight / TQ x RPM = Acceleration potential.

Thus -- Car Weight/Power = Acceleration Potential.

Math is not my strong point (sexy tutor with bad breath stalled me at algebra thought I tested gifted in it) so this may be a bit lame. Sorry if that is the case.

It is all good.

Old 02-28-2010, 05:27 PM
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Dave,

The LTM is an extreme example. It also has other attributes to it that makes it fast. How about comparing the VW TDI to the Gas TI.

Put a 290 lb guy on the 1 liter sport bike and a 200 lb guy on the HD, the rolling weights will be the same, and the sport bike will still leave the HD for gone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK I View Post
But we have to keep in mind why so many new cars have more gears.......that ugly acronym, EPA, wanting more and more MPG's, lower emissions...
Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK I View Post
...why do you think the C-5 Corvettes got 6 speeds? .All to improve CAFE numbers...
I thought the Corvette & CTS V had to run with gear lock outs effectively making it go from 1st to 4th, 5th & 6th in town. Not sure I have a point as gears are used for many reasons. Many cars have a lot of gears to improve performance but start in 2nd to improve ride (Lexus, MBZ, 928...?). Thus, I suspect gears are more corlated with price point than EPA/CAFE stuff.

Just a note, the 996TT was one of the first ultra low emissions cars to hit the street. Efficiency and performance often can go hand in hand. However, dollars are also a driver and thus things like variable cam timing, special TQ broadening intake tracts are more likely to be adopted in an expensive car first and often in the expensive performance cars first (Ferrari and variable exhaust tuning?) .


As to an auto v manual. An auto is typically faster shifting and even a better fit with a turbo keeping it more in boost, and for drag racing. On the track the manual is still mostly king. I think if I was going to buy a 996TT I might opt for the auto box and learn to left foot brake.

I wonder if one of the reasons besides its high TQ as to why 930 did not get a 5 speed out of the gate was because of turbo lag

Can we put a TT auto box in a turbo?

This would be more fun over a couple of beers.

Night - night and the best.

Old 02-28-2010, 06:09 PM
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Reference points of TQ v HP.

MB GL class:

335hp/339tq = 0-60 in 6.9
210hp/400tq = 0-60 in 9.1

VW Jetta:

170hp/177tq = 7.8
140hp/236tq = 8.6

I am pretty sure TQ is half of the equation that equals HP.

But it is HP that accelerates the car.
Old 02-28-2010, 07:29 PM
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Give me two pieces of information.

1. Your current road speed.

2. You choose the second piece of information, crank torque or crank hp.

It turns out if you give me crank torque, I cannot calculate how much force (torque) is actually being put to the ground at the wheels. You'll have to tell me your gearing too!

However, if you tell me your (current) crank hp and road speed alone I can tell you your torque at the wheels.

Crank torque doesn't give you the same information as hp does and yes the car with the higher integrated hp (or average hp) per gear will be faster assuming the same weight. It may very easily be the case that the car with the higher torque per gear is slower (I can come up with a very simple example and I'm sure 911st can too, ... actually I think he just did in the prior post).

Statements like torque accelerates you and hp keeps you going are misleading if not false.
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Old 02-28-2010, 09:02 PM
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[QUOTE=WERK I;5210764]

You mean like an Audi ALMS Diesel LMP1 car with the same HP as Acura LMP1 gasoline but more torque? There is no car on the planet that charges harder out of the corners than the LMP1 Diesel's from Peugeot and Audi. So your argument doesn't hold up there.


The Audi probably has a higher hp AVERAGE per gear than the Acura even though they have the same peak hp. I don't think anyone has claimed peak hp determines the faster accelerating car, it's always been said (in this thread) that the integrated hp in a gear was the determining factor. Which it is.

You think that HD weighs the same as 1liter GSX-R? Your argument doesn't hold up there either. Even then, the HD is quicker off the line than the GSX-R.....not unless the GSX-R driver fries his tires.


If they were the same weight the GSX-R would still completely smoke the HD if it has twice the hp. No contest.



EPA test cycles for one.......why do you think the C-5 Corvettes got 6 speeds? .All to improve CAFE numbers. Talk to any Corvette owner and ask them what they think of 6 speeds. Ask any Porsche 911 Turbo owner is more exciting to accelerate, the 996 turbo or the 930 turbo. A lot of them think the Tiptronic is just as much fun as the 6 speed. It is that boring, even though the 996 turbo is quicker.

Sports cars don't have extra gears for economy. Sure the corvette has a tall 6th for economy, and you do get economy benefits for closely spacing the gears... However, why do race cars have six gears? The reason is so that when you run through each gear you stay in the highest rpm possible. Even if your torque is completely flat so that in each gear you sweep out the same average torque, you will still get benefits from having more gears and keeping your rpms high since you will sweep out a higher hp average.

I like your enthusiasm Dave , however, to be completely honest with you, the stuff 911st says seems to match the definitions I've learned more than what I've read from you. However, I've just scanned this thread so I haven't read every line and can't vouch for anything that I haven't written myself.
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Last edited by Yargk; 02-28-2010 at 09:31 PM..
Old 02-28-2010, 09:27 PM
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Keith says;
"But it is HP that accelerates the car."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yargk View Post
Statements like torque accelerates you and hp keeps you going are misleading if not false.
[QUOTE=Yargk;5211101]
Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK I View Post

[COLOR="Blue"]Y
I like your enthusiasm Dave , however, to be completely honest with you, the stuff 911st says seems to match the definitions I've learned more than what I've read from you. However, I've just scanned this thread so I haven't read every line and can't vouch for anything that I haven't written myself.
No wonder we're falling behind the rest of the world in Science and Math!




P is power, Τ is torque, and ω is rotations per minute. The constant 5252 comes from (33,000 ft·lbf/min)/(2π rad./rev.).

Do either one of you two see how power(P) is calculated? And what is used to calculate P, besides the constant 5252 and RPM?

Horsepower is a measure of Energy like BTU's, Watts. It(HP) is a measure of Force(in this case Torque) over a Time period.
Torque is a measure of force like foot-lbs, Newton-meters. It is the Force of a moment.

Yargk, tell me you can't calculate torque from an HP curve from the formula I've just given.

You guys, this is High School Physics, for pete's sake!

Rarly8 (Brian) wrote;
"Torque vs HP talk has been done to death 50 years ago. You need look no further than drag racing to get your answer. Turbos and superchargers rule. That is torque. If HP ruled you'd see Indy cars lined up at the lights."

You are so-o-o-o right! What an idiot I was to fall into this stupid debate!

Going out for coffee and never to return.
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Old 03-01-2010, 06:22 AM
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