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replacing the distributor with ???

I was with David (125 Shifter) over the weekend (thanks for the steaks David).
Anyway we were talking cars (go figure). and the subject turned to DWURS and EFI etc.. He mentioned that the real power doesn't come with fuel as the CIS can deliver alot of fuel but with the timing control that EFI allows.

I like my DWUR but hate having a distributor So I was wondering what system is out there that would give me the following on my wish list

Eliminate distributor
Full advance/ retard programability
Twin plug capability
spark packs on plugs (to use a variety of standard units GM, VW etc)
MAP input
RPM limiting programable
Tach output
Easy to program

Did I leave anything out ? What systems are out there ? Mega Squirt ??

Trying to keep it cheap or at least reasonable
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98 Tahoe ,2007 Saturn Vue
86 930 black and stock, 80 930 blue tracdog
91 Spec Miata (yeah I race a chick car)
"life"ll kill ya" Warren Zevon
Old 04-19-2010, 09:48 PM
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SO, if I read this right, you are looking for an EFI system?

Some of them that are out there:

MoTec
FAST (Fuel Air Spark Technology)
Electromotive
Link EFi
DTA
Megasquirt

and I know there are a host of others that I am forgetting in this late hour.

All of the systems above will do what you want, and others do much, much more. BUT, you need to remember one thing when you look for an EFI system.... support!! If you have never worked with say for instance, a MoTec system, and you go out and buy one, who is going to tune the car? You can learn, but it will take time and paid dyno time. I picked to talk about MoTec as they are usually the most expensive, and they are a very good product. But, if you dont have someone close by who can help you set it up, or offer support when you are confused, or have a problem, then it is not worth much to you.

I went with Link EFi for my system. For one, they have most if not all of the features of a MoTec system at less than half the price, and I have someone who has some good experience with the system. Plus, the company is located in New Zealand, so they are open late at night, when I might need them...... They have a toll free number so I can call for free.

I hope this is the feedback you were looking for. I have known of a few friends of mine that went the MS route on their VW golf turbos, and they liked it. But, there are tons of maps out there for those cars, so it almost takes all of the work out of setup. Not so with these 911 turbo engines.

I have heard some bad press about the Electromotive stuff, such as bad sensors, etc. I had the older style Electromotive on my car before going full EFI ( just the crankfire portion HPV-1) and I had no problems....

I hope this helps!!!
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Old 04-19-2010, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9dreizig View Post
I was with David (125 Shifter) over the weekend (thanks for the steaks David).
Anyway we were talking cars (go figure). and the subject turned to DWURS and EFI etc.. He mentioned that the real power doesn't come with fuel as the CIS can deliver alot of fuel but with the timing control that EFI allows.

I like my DWUR but hate having a distributor So I was wondering what system is out there that would give me the following on my wish list

......................edit snipped..........................

Trying to keep it cheap or at least reasonable
Well then, I'd forget about EFI for now.

My vote goes to twin-plugging the heads and flow them as a "while you're in there".
Then electronic ignition w/crank sensor (Electromotive, MS/EDIS, Accel?). Then if you do decide to go EFI in the future, sell the ignition system off to one of the many enthusiasts here and cut over to the future, EFI.
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Old 04-20-2010, 03:13 AM
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Todd,

I went with the Electromotive XDI-2 ignition for my rebuild. It does everything you want except perhaps the coil on plug...I don't know for sure but possibly you must use the Electromotive coil packs. I made one stupid wiring mistake with the switched 12v signal to the relay powering my control unit, and once corrected she fired up instantly. Pretty much plug and play. The Wintec software is pretty easy to use and is the same as for Electromotive's full EFI units, so a potential easy upgrade path if you wish to go that route in the future. The twin-plug kit from Clewett plus wires runs about 2.2k. If you started with single plug, you'd save a few hundred $ because you'll only need one coil pack and set of wires. Add the second coil pack when you need to later.
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Old 04-20-2010, 04:02 AM
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Dang I shoulda got a kitchen pass... I didn't know David was cooking steaks!

I'm sure you could find somebody to "loan" you a decent fuel map to get started with just about any of the systems identified. I can think of a couple of Motec guys off the top of my head. Another option would be find somebody upgrading ECU's and buy a known working setup..? I would imagine starting from scratch with a box of parts could get crazy unless you've been there/done that before!
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Old 04-20-2010, 05:55 AM
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Todd, I tried to send you a PM about this but your inbox is full. Thanks.
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Old 04-20-2010, 07:01 AM
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Willtel sorry I'm ony iPhone and can't clear it now
can you ail me? Todd @ alpinemotion dot net
Old 04-20-2010, 09:51 AM
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Todd,

How about just optimizing what you have first?

Sounds like your are saying you are keeping the CIS but want full state of the art programmable ignition system.

With this you still will not over come the restriction added by the CIS metering plate (kind of like sucking through a straw) and poor atomization that comes with CIS at low rpm (low injector pressure spraying 100% of the time and coating the intake valve area in wait).

In most cases the motor is not going to know the difference between a coil on plug spark or one that comes through a distributor. Check out DonE's motor, I believe he went back to a distributor but with a few other goodies for a hotter spark.

Yes twin plugs have advantages but with your quality AFR's that should come with your D-WUR that is a lot of money to mostly just add about 3% more power from the twin plug function at the low end.

You could probably get your stock components to work better with a little work on a dyno to identify the ideal off idle advance and probably get a good percentage of the possible improvement. It could also help you find the ideal on boost timing value at TQ peak for your build and fuel.

The stock components are adjustable with little effort for initial advance, total advance, advance curve, and for total amount of boost and or vac retard.

A step up might be a programmable MSD box. This should help to ignite the poor CIS air fuel mix at low RPM and also allow you to bend the timing curve around the TQ peak for a little border power band.

The next step up could be to get a programmable system that adds the functionality of changing timing based on different intake air and motor temps so you can run closer to an ideal under all operating conditions safely. Heck, just get a simple programmable controller, a crank trigger, temp sensors, and MAP sensor and use it to drive your stock components for a lot less.

Just a thought.
Old 04-21-2010, 07:55 PM
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Timing is certainly a big part of increasing power (actually torque which is far more important) but I would call it drivability. To a degree, controlling fuel is almost as important too. For example, stomping on the pedal should start two things: dumping the right amount of fuel in the cylinder (right NOW!) and lighting the fire at the proper position on the stroke. To give you an example on my car, when floor it around 2500 rpm, my ECU shoots enough fuel to give me an AFR of around 11.8:1 AND 36 degrees of advance on the spark (CDI spark too - big difference in torque than wasted spark).

No doubt David is correct on the spark issue and addressing that will wake your motor up. But for real performance, you have to address a bit more.

Last edited by DonE; 04-22-2010 at 05:27 PM..
Old 04-22-2010, 05:24 PM
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Don, Keith,
I agree with what both of you said. My main motivation is I just hate the idea of a mechanical distributor. My goals would be #1 to control timing for low end torque. Would certainly be adding a larger intercooler first. Twin plugging would be a ways away. The limits of the CIS are certainly a long way off.
I guess I love being able to play around with the DWUR and a laptop and really want to do the same with the timing.
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Old 04-22-2010, 06:05 PM
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The Electromotive XDI-2 has been around for a while so it should be pretty well sorted out.
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Old 04-22-2010, 06:35 PM
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You might look into a programmable MSD conversion. Should get you the most bang for the buck and works great with CIS.

MSD Digital Programmable 6AL-2 - 6530

Here is a bit on the Electromotive ignition driver: Electromotive Direct Ignition System - Electromotive XDI Ignition Controller with Harness

Last edited by 911st; 04-22-2010 at 07:13 PM..
Old 04-22-2010, 06:57 PM
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Todd,

If you don't want to spend a lot of dollars take a look at the MSD 6AL-2
6530 programmable. Still uses your distributor but you get MAP input totally programmable timing and boost curves for $350.00. Affordable, bullet proof, easy to install, and you don't have to be a EE to tune it.

Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 04-22-2010, 08:02 PM
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Yes Keith that does look good. Still need to work on the elimination of the distributor but that looks do-able too. I might make the investment
Todd
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Old 04-22-2010, 08:03 PM
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Yes that was what I was trying to say above,, our messages passed each other LOL..
but FYI, I do have an EE degree!!! (just been in sales so long forgot most of it hahaha)
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"Todd"
98 Tahoe ,2007 Saturn Vue
86 930 black and stock, 80 930 blue tracdog
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"life"ll kill ya" Warren Zevon
Old 04-22-2010, 08:12 PM
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Todd,

For some of this new stuff you need it. I have a MET and a EET but my age gets me. I took finals with a slide rule !!!!!

Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 04-22-2010, 08:20 PM
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LOL, I had a calculator, but it was new technology!!
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98 Tahoe ,2007 Saturn Vue
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Old 04-22-2010, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cole930 View Post
Todd,

If you don't want to spend a lot of dollars take a look at the MSD 6AL-2
6530 programmable. Still uses your distributor but you get MAP input totally programmable timing and boost curves for $350.00. Affordable, bullet proof, easy to install, and you don't have to be a EE to tune it.

Cole
Cole, Great minds...
Old 04-23-2010, 07:17 AM
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The MSD has several advantages.

Yes you can program your timing curve by boost & rpm.

CIS sprays fuel at low pressure off idle and the fuel just sits waiting for the intake for the valve to open. At low rpm the air and fuel dose not seem to mix well. Thus, the combustion chamber is full of rich and lean conditions and you never know which is at the tip of the spark plug. The MSD has multiple hot sparks for up to 2500rpm. Thus, this side of twin plugs it is the best way to ensure crisp and effective ignition.

I also believe it makes a hotter spark than stock or I believe I had heard over Electomotove unless they have upgraded there coils.

At boost ones effective compression ratio is pretty high. With the hotter spark one can run a larger gap at the spark plug so more Air/Fuel mix will be exposed to the spark for a bit more crisp ignition. Some have reported a HP gain with the larger gaps on a turbo. Look up the MSD users manual. They make spark plug gap recommendations by compression ratio.

Thus, MSD is almost a perfect fit for several reasons on a CIS turbo.

Just my opinion and what I believe so far.

Last edited by 911st; 04-23-2010 at 07:32 AM..
Old 04-23-2010, 07:28 AM
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Keith,

Nice to see you here. I miss your always thought provoking input.

Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 04-23-2010, 08:22 AM
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