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Max Sluiter
 
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Correct me if I am wrong, but the steering happens within the damper with the stock bushing, as the rubber does not twist easily and the damper shaft is fixed by the nut to the chassis. So your setup is fine as-is.
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911S
1971 chassis, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened

Suspension by Rebel Racing, Serviced by TLG Auto, Brakes by PMB Performance
http://www.flickr.com/photos/max_911_fahrer/
Old 01-28-2014, 09:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #341 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flieger View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but the steering happens within the damper with the stock bushing, as the rubber does not twist easily and the damper shaft is fixed by the nut to the chassis. So your setup is fine as-is.
Thats correct, but stock cars do not have coil springs. Now the coils are turning with the strut, but on the top the hat is fixed together with the damper insert, so the spring slides better or less over the spring seat.

There are two possible ways:

Between spring and hat some needle bearings like this:



or the monoball in the camber mounts do the turning, which I prefer
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Roland

930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list
Old 01-28-2014, 11:53 PM
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I'm not sure I would want the monoball to do all the turning. Front load and rotation on that small ball would wear out and get loose in no time.

I went with the needle bearing setup on the top hat, to protect it a little, and lubed it with the dry, waxy based bicycle chain lube.
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1986 911 Turbo
3.3L, K27HFS, Tial 46mm, TurboKraft Intercooler, 964 Cams, Monty Muffler, MS3 w/MS3X, M&W Ignition, Zietronix WBO2 Data Logger, Wevo shifter, coupler and motor mounts.
Old 01-29-2014, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinRice View Post
I'm not sure I would want the monoball to do all the turning. Front load and rotation on that small ball would wear out and get loose in no time.

I went with the needle bearing setup on the top hat, to protect it a little, and lubed it with the dry, waxy based bicycle chain lube.
I had a smaller monoball for the last 10 years /10'000km (no track) and had no issues. The new one is even bigger, so I don't expect any problems.

Further the monoball is moving anyway when suspension is acting, so the more different positions, the better in my eyes (less peaks on point)
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Roland

930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list
Old 01-29-2014, 01:52 PM
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More success at this time on my shifter rod, bush, clamp whatever thing. Weights can vary about a few gramms for the alu rod (bolt is not machined yet) and maybe 100gramm for the stock one (has a bush/bolt in the middle to separate), but still a lot of saving in my eyes. More weight saved on the coupler, but it's not finished yet.

Made the clamp out of a massive block and much patience :-). Now everything except the bolt for the clamp is made out of High strength aluminum (7075)... Ok, tube alloy is unkown







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Roland

930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list
Old 01-29-2014, 02:03 PM
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That eases my mind on the life of my monoball

Looked a little flimsy to me.
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1986 911 Turbo
3.3L, K27HFS, Tial 46mm, TurboKraft Intercooler, 964 Cams, Monty Muffler, MS3 w/MS3X, M&W Ignition, Zietronix WBO2 Data Logger, Wevo shifter, coupler and motor mounts.
Old 01-29-2014, 02:07 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #346 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinRice View Post
Looked a little flimsy to me.
Sorry, don't understand that statement (my poor english)

I do remember in my days as motorcycle mechanic over 15 years, that needles in the suspension don't last very long, but did a nice job until then (superfine response)

However, monoballs are made to take a lot of loads with poor movement while needle bearings are not (just check ER page about needles on front arm bushes).

If I get the monoballs turning I am happy. If not, I will think about alternatives.
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Roland

930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list
Old 01-29-2014, 02:18 PM
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Your English is fine, my US slang is terrible

In other words, a monoball takes all the load and rotation on a smaller surface area leading to possibly faster wear. Where as the bearing spreads the load out to a larger area.

Unsealed needle bearings always have problems, and if the sealed versions leak, they don't last long either.

My biggest concern with the bearing is all the dirt and junk that will get into it, so it still might be a maintenance problem. One of the reasons I used a dry waxy lube. Sprays out wet, but turns to a wax coating so it doesn't attract dirt.

I bought spares just in case.
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1986 911 Turbo
3.3L, K27HFS, Tial 46mm, TurboKraft Intercooler, 964 Cams, Monty Muffler, MS3 w/MS3X, M&W Ignition, Zietronix WBO2 Data Logger, Wevo shifter, coupler and motor mounts.
Old 01-29-2014, 02:37 PM
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Roland,
Did you miss my post #340 on page 17? Looks like you saved over a pound...amazing!

WinRice,
I never thought about using waxed bicycle lube. Instead I used Bel-Ray waterproof grease on the needle bearings. It's been a few years since did this. It's going to be interesting to check out the condition of the bearings sometime in the future the next time I remove the front struts.
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'87 930
Old 01-29-2014, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeD94 View Post
Instead I used Bel-Ray waterproof grease on the needle bearings. It's been a few years since did this. It's going to be interesting to check out the condition of the bearings sometime in the future the next time I remove the front struts.
The one nice thing with coilovers, you could unbolt the swaybar link, relax the spring seat rings, pull one top bolt and swing the strut out to check or replace the bearing. Should be fairly easy if I have to maintain it.
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1986 911 Turbo
3.3L, K27HFS, Tial 46mm, TurboKraft Intercooler, 964 Cams, Monty Muffler, MS3 w/MS3X, M&W Ignition, Zietronix WBO2 Data Logger, Wevo shifter, coupler and motor mounts.
Old 01-29-2014, 04:08 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #350 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeD94 View Post
Roland,
Did you miss my post #340 on page 17? Looks like you saved over a pound...
Sorry Mike... shame on me yes, probably a pound saved, incl. coupler when finished for sure
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Roland

930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list
Old 01-29-2014, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinRice View Post
The one nice thing with coilovers, you could unbolt the swaybar link, relax the spring seat rings, pull one top bolt and swing the strut out to check or replace the bearing. Should be fairly easy if I have to maintain it.
I knew there is some advantage with coilovers
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Roland

930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list
Old 01-29-2014, 04:45 PM
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Max Sluiter
 
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The needle bearing also makes ride height adjustments easier and will allow the spring to twist a bit like it wants to do. I would prefer the thrust bearing for its smoother action, then figure out how to seal it.

I thought all of Clint's coil-over kits came with needle bearings. I know I assembled kits that had those thrust bearings and went underneath the mono ball.

Like this:

The thrust bearing is I the top spring perch. That seems pretty protected.
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911S
1971 chassis, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened

Suspension by Rebel Racing, Serviced by TLG Auto, Brakes by PMB Performance
http://www.flickr.com/photos/max_911_fahrer/

Last edited by Flieger; 01-29-2014 at 05:36 PM..
Old 01-29-2014, 05:30 PM
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If this is the bearing, then it makes no sense to me here:



The hat is turning around the damper axxis then, because damper is not turning (as monoball does not turn). So there would be binding and play in the center drilling. Hat should not move on the damper. Further there must be another bearing under the hat.

The only thing making sense is a bearing between hat and coil like this:

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Roland

930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list
Old 01-30-2014, 12:47 AM
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Max Sluiter
 
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The top stainless steel flanged piece is clamped tight between the top of the strut and the inner race (ball) of the spherical bearing. The spring stays still relative to the lower spring perch due to the compressive load. This means that the bottom half of the strut turns on its linear bearing and the spring goes with it. The weight of the corner is on both the needle bearing and the spherical bearing but the needle thrust bearing allows smooth steering while the spherical bearing accommodates suspension articulation.

At least that is my understanding.
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911S
1971 chassis, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened

Suspension by Rebel Racing, Serviced by TLG Auto, Brakes by PMB Performance
http://www.flickr.com/photos/max_911_fahrer/
Old 01-30-2014, 06:06 PM
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Max Sluiter
 
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Both of those assemblies shown are equivalent. One has a large piece between the spherical bearing and needle bearing and a small piece between the thrust bearing and spring, and the rebel setup is the opposite.
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911S
1971 chassis, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened

Suspension by Rebel Racing, Serviced by TLG Auto, Brakes by PMB Performance
http://www.flickr.com/photos/max_911_fahrer/
Old 01-30-2014, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flieger View Post
The top stainless steel flanged piece is clamped tight between the top of the strut and the inner race (ball) of the spherical bearing. The spring stays still relative to the lower spring perch due to the compressive load. This means that the bottom half of the strut turns on its linear bearing and the spring goes with it. The weight of the corner is on both the needle bearing and the spherical bearing but the needle thrust bearing allows smooth steering while the spherical bearing accommodates suspension articulation.

At least that is my understanding.
I think the same, except the spherical bearing (monoball) allows smooth steering as well, when it's not too tight. It's a question of bearing play, some are tight (or even some preload) and others run free but still without noticable play. Such a bearing I had for the last 10 years without any issue and that's what I like to have again. And steering was smooth then too.

Conclusion:

Make the existing monoball run smooth or replace by a better one (meaning less pre-loaded)

However thanks for your inputs anyway fellows
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Roland

930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list
Old 01-31-2014, 12:08 AM
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Max Sluiter
 
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Clint mostly gets the ones with a Teflon liner and they always drag. Otherwise there would be slop and they would be already worn out. That is the price of eliminating the need to service them. You can usually get several specifications of fit and Clint goes for the tight one because they last long and break-in pretty quickly with the loads seen in the suspension.
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911S
1971 chassis, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened

Suspension by Rebel Racing, Serviced by TLG Auto, Brakes by PMB Performance
http://www.flickr.com/photos/max_911_fahrer/
Old 01-31-2014, 06:05 PM
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D-ZUG shifter a bit disappointing...

I got my shifter yesterday and was wondering how it is made... To be honest, I expected a little nicer built quality for 650USD than this, even more if I compare to my former Hargett shifter

Here are the "issues" in detail:

Top area is not squared angled precise, one side is about 3mm off at the rear corner:



Better visible without rod etc...:



Some cut-outs (left one) not parallel to edge:



Drillings look like made by shooting and all the same size, no matter if fot M8 or M6. Further the ones for M8 are tappered so the Bolt cannot moved through:



Poor Machining all around, bolts are sharped and have no finish



Rod has dents (not visible if assembled), Thread is sharp and has flake:





Slot too small, so bolt only contacts in the corners and gap left in the middle:





So I will work on the shifter a bit, make some improvements in play by better bearing concept. Furter it's quite heavy. Solid, but too much in my eyes.

Of course all this does should not affect shifting performance, at least not as long there is any wear. But I suggest there will be a lot of worn out areas to soon due the poor bearing effort.

Just my opinion...
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Roland

930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list

Last edited by proffighter; 02-14-2014 at 10:57 AM..
Old 02-14-2014, 10:53 AM
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Time for more Swiss precision :-)
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Old 02-14-2014, 11:21 AM
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