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This is classic. The exact scenario has played out as expected and predicted by Jeremy. Loren has an opinion that most, if not all, find incorrect and invalid and then everyone provides evidence so Loren will really stop believing that the landing on the moon was staged by the government. So, to recap:

Loren thinks chips suck, don't work and that chips provide "insignificant performance gains." I know, I know, I know.... The US government captured some aliens when their spaceship crashed in New Mexico and they are currently being held at Area 51 in a special hanger.


Then the people chime in:

1. The guy who makes the chip stands by it and gives a no question, no worry money back guarantee of his product. (Sounds pretty safe so far);
2. There have been no reported engine damage issues by the members who have used the non-factory chip. (Sounds like the engine is happy too)
3. The opinions of those who have installed the non-factory chip are that they have realized a performance gain following its install. (sounds like those crazy uninformed Porche guys are happy too).
4. A well respected member of this BB thinks that the only reasonable explanation for performance enhancing numbers in a dyno run (following re-chipping) is, you guessed it, from the chip.
5. The governing body who controls the standardized racing of Porsche cars requires a car that is to be classified in its factory stock condition to have a factory DME chip. The purpose of the racing classes are to maintain the performance integrity of the cars in each of the designated classes. The would mean that PCA wants cars that are similarly equipped and performing to race together. Sounds fair to me. Thus, according to those wacky guys at PCA, a car with a non-factory DME chip have to move up one class from their stock class, to race with the cars in a "prepared" class. Sounds to me that PCA actually thinks that re-chipping a car is .... YOU GUESSED IT, a performance enhancement. In fact, they had the nerve to put it as the first criteria under engine changes, with other major fuel/air delievery changes. I wonder why they think non-factory DME chips give an advantage over stock equipped cars? (Sounds like some grassy knoll/JFK conspiracy stuff to me). You know, they might be on to something over there at PCA. Maybe a change in the air metering/flow works too? Interesting. How does that whole gasoline combustion engine thing work again? Air+fuel+spark= you go faster than by horse. I wonder if the air variable or the fuel variable was changed/modified/tweeked if there could be an increase in the.... drumroll please... number of equines that resulted?


Loren, this subject is not new or novel by any means. Many makes of automobiles benefit from fuel chip remapping. Factory engineers have to balance concerns that we owners do not. Fuel efficiency, emissions etc. As a result, lots and lots of companies make non-factory chips to exploits areas that the factory chose not too (agreed some work, some dont, depends on the programming of the chip, mods to the car etc).

Many people know that cars that are equipped with EFI have a stock fuel mapping chip that the factory programs with certain conditions in mind. As such, the 911 chip was not programmed with the intention that an instruction to the end user was to only use 93 octane fuel in the car. In fact, many 911 owners did not (and still dont) have access to such an octane rating of fuel. Therefore, the Porsche factory placed no requirement for 93 octane... just one for "Premium" fuel, which in many cases was only 91. I wonder why a manufacturer would specify a higher octane fuel only, maybe because the DME chip was mapped accordingly? Do you think it is possible that a manufacturer could have actually programmed the fuel map to exploit the use of an even better fuel, yep that good 'ol 93 octane stuff, and obtain peformance results from that change? Or maybe more fuel at certain points in the curve, advance in timing, etc?

Sir, I submit that they have and can. In fact, there are more "agressively" fuel mapped chips that came straight from the boys in Germany. Some cars were provided with differently mapped chips that had specific seriel numbers. When those factory chips are compared to other factory chips a difference appears in the fuel mapping. And low and behold, Porsche engineers of all people at some point in the 911 life cycle felt that changing the fuel mapping with more aggressive characteristics could actually change the performance of the car. Why else do you think that these changes were made? I do not believe it was to make them more fuel efficient or emmissions complaint.
(Those crazy Germans, maybe they think the moon is made of swiss cheese too!)

Come on Loren, (sounds of John Lennon playing in the background) all we are saying...is give chips a chance!

Of course, I could be wrong about all of this. Like many here, I am just some weekend warrior who loves his car and reads a lot. If I am wrong, well its off the cliff with the rest of the lemmings! Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

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What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul!

Last edited by smoak; 01-24-2004 at 10:18 AM..
Old 01-23-2004, 03:36 PM
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Old 01-23-2004, 06:06 PM
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Bill, you're a wordsmith! Very smooth.
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Old 01-23-2004, 07:03 PM
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Agreed. Bill - great summation.
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Old 01-23-2004, 08:03 PM
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Read the data from Bruce Anderson guys. It speaks for itself. No one has addressed
it (except Adman), why? But there's lots of "trash talk", though.

Sorry Dan, I didn't mean to include you with the rest. It was you who did provide
the key data I've been referencing. The other data from the web site shows the
typical small changes from the chip as in the Bruce Anderson data, even though
the runs are with special exhausts.

Also, remember I was the one who was going to fly back east for the weekend
and help/observe a few dyno runs. I would have been spending my own money
without any benefit. I haven't hear any chips suppliers willing to become involved
or spend money in/on any dyno runs,
have you?
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Old 01-23-2004, 08:34 PM
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Bill, ditto
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Old 01-23-2004, 08:39 PM
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Reply to Jeremy which I posted on Rennlist:

Jack:

It would have been better to have had a tabular data output to make comparisons.
But that aside, the max torque is only 4.5 ft lbs over stock. The 4000 RPM torque
did come up about 10 ft lbs, though. This about 6+ HP.

Now, in evaluating the peak HP increase of 14.5 (RWHP & NOT cranK) you'll see
that it occurs above 6000 RPMs. This results from a little pickup in torque. The
question is, what's the true basis for this torque increase?

First, I think your 3.6 is not totally stock, i.e. you have a non-stock exhaust. Also,
there maybe other not stock things. So making a chip comparison on a non-stock
car and extrapolating that to a stock one is questionable. This is because once you
change an exhaust or intake system, the engine will need to be tweaked which
will potentially show more HP improvement than just a chip change on a stock
engine. You can see that much more fuel is being dumped at or near the peak
torque (AFR = 10 versus about 12 for stock) and max HP.

Bottomline:

The results seen could have also been achieved with an AFM tweaking. You still
have the stock AFM and not a MAF unit? What you're getting in HP gains is what
usually occurs and is not much different than the Bruce Anderson runs. If you review
that data, you'll find that the most HP gain was at around 6000 RPMs.

I was involved over 8 years ago with a number of shops, (You probably know which
ones.), installing and evaluating chips. Most of the shops have stopped installing
chips, especially on the 3.6 because of problems, e.g. idling and pinging.

So, for most stock engines and the way most Porsche owners drive, performance
chips in my view are of questionable value. This outlook is based on a purely objective
evaluation over the years. For many, though, installing a perfomance chip may be
worthwhile from a subjective point or track racing at or near 6000 RPMs.

Another point: Can some of you guys make intelligent comments like the few
who do and not always "trash talk". Come on now!
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Old 01-23-2004, 08:46 PM
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Smoak:

Instead of rambling on, you might try and address the data presented
versus hypothesizng/speculating about Porsche's engineering. Is there
a reason for your ignoring the data.

Have you read my thread on "Perfomance Improvements for All Porsches"?
Many did respond intelligently. I don't remember seeing your comments.
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Old 01-23-2004, 08:55 PM
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so Loren, since you are the expert here, do you think that there is benefit from chipping after adding a euro premuffler and sport exhaust? What about in conjunction with a MAF?
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Old 01-23-2004, 09:30 PM
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Please, I'm no expert, and I apologize for that impression. I just try and
convey what I've learned over the last 20 years being involved with Porsches.

To answer your question, yes. Once you change the intake and exhaust systems,
performance gains are possible with chip changes. I think the changes need to
be setup using a dyno to maximize the results and to avoid "holes" in the
torque curve.

The same goes for the MAF installation. Potentially better throttle response can
be achieved, but I've heard of a lot problems with them. The main reason why
all OEMs use them is for better fuel metering over the full throttle range. The
AFM only is effective for about 60 to 70% of the throttle opening. After that,
the DME calculates the fuel metering based on RPMs. It's a very costly design
effort to develop a good MAF system (mechanical & electronic) generally
requiring the resources of a Porsche/Bosch for a very viable and reliable unit.
Even Porsche, on the Boxster and 996, has reliability problems now with
the MAF.
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Old 01-23-2004, 09:52 PM
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makes sense. MAF is a little more extreme than I am thinking of going but intake, premuffler, exhaust and chip are on the list. I just need to find a good shop in town to help with the tuning.
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Old 01-23-2004, 09:56 PM
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One of the best posts (TimT) describes how a perfoamance chip and mods
should be developed/tweaked":

"When we set up cars on a dyno, we first tune for AFR, we get the AFR somewhere between 12.5-13.5 for maximum potential power.

Then we go back and adjust timing at each load site. Timng is adjusted to provide max torque at each load site.

For example we run the car to 3000rpm, then dial load into the dyno. then while holding at 3000 rpm the timing is adjusted to the point where max torque is seen, then begins to fall off. The timing is then backed off to the point we found max power.

If you have a system with a knock sensor installed you can leave the timing at the point of maximum power. If not to give a margin of safety we back the timing off a touch from the instantaneous max we observe."

The proper way it's done. Great isn't it! Simple & very logical. No guessing here.
Jack Olsen could probably squeeze a little more out of the 3.6 using this approach.
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Old 01-23-2004, 10:24 PM
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My '86 3.2 Carrera dyno'd at 226 rwhp and 206 TQ with the following mods: B&B exhaust with 3" single out muffler, Autothority mass air with custom chip, +3mm throttle body, and intake/exhaust ports matched running on 93 octane fuel.
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Old 01-24-2004, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scooter84 It appears ...that a chip, pre-muffler, and (sport) muffler will give you everything SSI's will and possibly more.
Quote:
Originally posted by krichard so Loren, ...do you think that there is benefit from chipping after adding a euro premuffler and sport exhaust?
Quote:
Originally posted by Lorenfb To answer your question, yes. Once you change the intake and exhaust systems, performance gains are possible with chip changes. I think the changes need to be setup using a dyno to maximize the results and to avoid "holes" in the torque curve.
Loren,

It appears that you now agree with my original statement, at least substantively. I have nothing left to add. Thank you for the interesting dialog.
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Old 01-24-2004, 08:16 AM
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Scooter:

You might try to avoid taking things out of context and READ all the previous
posts in the future before you post an irrelevant comment.

Furthermore, the issue all long has been with regard to a stock engine and
the resulting performance gain from a chip, and NOT the performance gain
achieved by installing a chip AFTER making engine mods.
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Old 01-24-2004, 09:59 AM
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Re: 3.2 performance upgrades

Loren,

I have been extremely polite to you in my posts. I will continue to take the high road and not degrade myself by stooping to the level of trying to attack you personally as it appears you have in your last post. Irrelevant can be defined as having no bearing on or connection with the subject at issue. By claiming that my comments are irrelevant you are insulting me by implying that my views have no bearing on the underlined issue. My views are just as important as yours and I take offense to you believing otherwise. You are also implying that my views have no connection with the subject at issue. This is a completely false argument, as my first post IS the underlined issue relating to me. Furthermore, I have not taken anything out of context. I have posted the substantive portion of your post, as it relates to my first post. I merely deleted the unnecessary and derogatory language. I have not misrepresented your statements in any way.

As for your argument that “the issue all long has been with regard to a stock engine and the resulting performance gain from a chip, and NOT the performance gain achieved by installing a chip AFTER making engine mods”, that very well be your issue, but not mine. I stated in my first post “It appears ...that a chip, pre-muffler, and (sport) muffler will give you everything SSI's will and possibly more.” I did not say anything about just a chip modification, but rather, I stated all three together as a package modification. I believe krichard asked “do you think that there is benefit from chipping after adding a euro premuffler and sport exhaust?” You replied “To answer your question, yes. Once you change the intake and exhaust systems, performance gains are possible with chip changes.” My READING of the above statement written by you directly relates to MY original post.

To break it down further, my original post stated the following:
“It appears ...that a chip, pre-muffler, and (sport) muffler will give you everything SSI's will and possibly more.”

Your last post stated the following:
“Once you change the intake and exhaust systems, performance gains are possible with chip changes.”

Now, I am not interested in other arguments discussed in this thread, as my original post is the only statement at issue relating to me.

To that end, I have nothing left to say on the issue relating to my original post. I was merely attempting to help another Pelican, and everything turned negative. I will not let this thread hamper my enthusiasm in this site or the enthusiasm I have in supporting my fellow Pelicans. I am almost ashamed to have taken part in such a negative atmosphere. I know there may be much said about my statement here, and much of it will continue the negative vibe, which will just support why I am leaving this thread. I say good luck in your future endeavors, Loren. Good bye.
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Old 01-24-2004, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lorenfb
Furthermore, the issue all long has been with regard to a stock engine and
the resulting performance gain from a chip, and NOT the performance gain
achieved by installing a chip AFTER making engine mods.
So you are saying that if you perform modifications to your engine (such as removing the cat, performance muffler, etc) then utilize a chip that has been programed using a dyno with those specific modifications, then it is possible to achieve performance gains?
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Old 01-24-2004, 11:30 AM
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Loren:

It is apparent to me and must be obvious to all that you have superior knowledge upon this subject matter and I could never hope to rise to the level of your clear intellect regarding this topic area. As such, I make up for my juvenille understanding of engineering by applying simple common sense. As such, in light of my clear and obvious inferior insight into this subject, I am reminded of something my grandmother once told me, "son an ounce of common sense is worth more than a pound of misplaced knowledge."

As you noted, I didn't comment on "your thread" regarding "Performance Improvements for All Porsches. I will have to aplogize for this as I did not know that your particular expose on the topic was on the required reading program for this winter. (Is it to be included in the next Wayne Dempsey book?) Maybe if I just had read it I would be able to offer more thoughtfull commentary with the above. On the other hand, I do not recall your addressing my points within this discusson either. Loren, did you actually read "my reply" to this thread? Do you have explanations for what I offered? Did you actually know that Porsche had different series of DME chips in the 911 series? Did you know that they actually had one that had a more aggressive fuel mapping when compare to earlier versions? I also did not see your response to the questions regarding why the PCA would make a car increase a level for having such an, as you put it, "insignificant performance change" to its DME chip. While I did not see your responses to the other areas I addressed, it really does not matter since my "rambling" just ignored the data and instead applied what my grandma told me was important, when all else fails just use a little common sense.

However, we can agree on something, you are right in that I did not apply numbers to my argument (unless you count those little serial numbers that Porsche used on certain more aggressively fuel mapped chips) and I can admit that I perhaps did "ramble" on about why I believe that you are misguided by under utilization of your intellect over the simple application of everyday common sense. I have found in my experience that technical people often times forget this most basic of tenets.

But my recollection of how this whole Loren versus the World little spat started was that someone asked for cheap and effective mods to his 3.2 engine. Most chimed in with the holy trinity of these mods, which are the sport exhaust, pre-muff or straight pipe, and a chip. So after the exhaust is freed up a little, as is sorely needed on US 3.2's, would it really make sense that the engine could stand a more aggressively programmed fuel mapping curve?

Again, I certainly don't know what you know, but I do know that I did stay at the Holiday Inn last night. So, as I said before, why not give the chip a try with the exhaust mods on an otherwise stock engine, and viola, I submit that the combination is an excellent performance enhancement. Then, if you want to get real tricky, you can tinker with the air intake, change out the chip again for those changes and ... well you get the point.

Of course, Loren could be right and its back to the cliff I go (with the rest of the lemmings) if I am wrong about this process. In the meantime I could have possibly wasted a jaw dropping $250 in the process and Steve Wong is retiring to the luxury of perhaps Burbank on that truly massive pile of money he's made suckering everyone. And Loren, well you will still just be a smart guy who has difficulty playing well with others.

P.S. For what its worth (which maybe absolutely nothing), I have found that when attempting to argue or prove points with others that differ with you it helps to be humble, less arrogant, tactful, respectful of others opinions and insightful in your own (heck even humor works). Meanwhile, it has been apparent to me that your techniques are vastly different than mine. I certainly respect your native intelligence on these admittedly complex subject matters but your methods of persuasion leave much to be desired. I offer this not as a personal attack upon you, since I do not know you personally, but just as friendly advice from someone who just so happens to make a portion of my living educatating others upon techniques of effective persuasion. Good luck to you. And thank you for your contribution to our community.
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What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul!

Last edited by smoak; 01-24-2004 at 11:51 AM..
Old 01-24-2004, 11:42 AM
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Unhappy Time to do something different

This Chip/No Chip debate has been raging for the last 2 months almost non-stop. Loren is obviously an intelligent guy who really knows a lot about P-cars. He also totally disagrees with 90% (?) of the people who are on this post when it comes to DME chips. (Loren: As a side note: I honestly believe that you ENJOY arguing with everyone)
I think I'd rather see that stupid picture of the ice on the 911 again than hear the arguments go round and round!
Whadda you say guys? Loren ain't gonna quit-he likes it. Maybe we should just ignore him and move on?
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Old 01-24-2004, 12:03 PM
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Oh boy, if this thread goes on until tomorrow, I have something else to humor me besides the Sunday morning comics!!

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