Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[Vino]

Someone on the VW boards had posted a UOA on LubroMoly oil synthoil 5w-40.
Look at the Zinc numbers "after" use : )
VWvortex Forums: LubroMoly 5W40 UOA

I am not going to steal his UOA but IMO that is an amazing looking oil and can be found at NAPA for like $36 in 5qts jug.
What I like is how good this oil did with about 3800 miles on it and in a DFI motor that is known to tear oils apart at about 3k with the fuel dilution.

I am currently using this oil in our Cayenne Turbo and may give it a try in my 87 Carrera or their 10w-40.
It's a German oil.

LUBRO MOLY - Lube Oils, Additives

[gsmith660]

I know everybody loves the mobil brand and I realize the oil probably comes from them anyway but for their part in the 5 dollar a gallon gas of past I wont knowingly give exxon mobil a penny of mine.

Originally Posted by tchanson

Don't overlook these other full synthetic oils, particularly beneficial to turbos, that have been recommended both on this board in general and this thread in particular for years now:

Mobil 1 VTwin 20W50 and Motul 300V 15W50.


If you run a cat, the current formulation Mobil 1 15W50 appears to have adequate ZDDP based on the VOA above. Otherwise, the new Mobil 1 Racing 0W50 that is to be released this month could be a strong alternative to dino or partial synthetic boutique oils as well.






Tim

[cnavarro]

I'll refresh everyone's memory that is not just the ZDDP content we're looking at, but also the choice of detergents and the ratio of the additives. The lower the detergency, the better the anti-wear additives work.

Also, using Mg or Na based detergents (which cost more) in conjunction with lower levels of the cheaper Ca based detergent also promotes better adhesion of ZDDP films on wear surfaces.

The flip side is these oils with lower detergents that provide the best wear characteristics usually cost more AND have to be changed more often.

I for one would guess the the M1 Racing 0w30 and 0w50 will be great oils, just like the VTwin 20w50 and 4T Racing 10w40 M1 products.

[333pg333]

So Charles are you saying you'd be happy for us to use those Mobil oils with such low viscosity (0w-30) in our motors, or that in general terms these oils will be good for non flat tappet motors?

Are you also happy to use an oil with such a large range such as a 0w-50?

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by 333pg333

So Charles are you saying you'd be happy for us to use those Mobil oils with such low viscosity (0w-30) in our motors, or that in general terms these oils will be good for non flat tappet motors?

Are you also happy to use an oil with such a large range such as a 0w-50?

With fully synthetic oils, I'm not too concerned about the wide ranges, and especially with race oils, they need to be changed more often anyways.

On the low viscosity oils, I don't think any of the older P engines should use anything less than a 40 weight oil.

On the newer water cooled engines, it may be possible to run a 30 weight - I actually plan on testing these as well as the broad spectrum 50 weights of various API ratings to see how they all stack up wear wise.

[woywitka]

So I bought 11 litres of Castrol GTX Diesel Motor oil 20W 50. In honesty, this thread confused me more than it helped. And I tried my best to make sense of it; however, as a newcomer to Porsche I was heavily discouraged to post topics that have been covered. I hope this is acceptable to post here.

I bought a Bosch Oil filter and this motor oil. Meets the requirements listed on the first page, but the "diesel" aspect has me nervous to pour it in my 911 just now.

Any help would be surely appreciated and sorry if I am asking questions covered a million times, but 68 pages on this thread is a bit too much reading.

Thank-you

-Tom

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by woywitka

So I bought 11 litres of Castrol GTX Diesel Motor oil 20W 50. In honesty, this thread confused me more than it helped. And I tried my best to make sense of it; however, as a newcomer to Porsche I was heavily discouraged to post topics that have been covered. I hope this is acceptable to post here.

I bought a Bosch Oil filter and this motor oil. Meets the requirements listed on the first page, but the "diesel" aspect has me nervous to pour it in my 911 just now.

Any help would be surely appreciated and sorry if I am asking questions covered a million times, but 68 pages on this thread is a bit too much reading.

Thank-you

-Tom

Tom,

Does this help?

Originally Posted by HarryD

I am sorry my little thread causes so many responses and is hard to read.

Cliff notes version:

Older engines (pre-mid 90's) need high levels (around 1200 ppm plus correct level of detergents) of Zinc (Zn) and Phosphorus (P) to protect cams and other high pressure surfaces.

With the introduction of roller tappets in most engines by the mid-90's, this requirement is relaxed and Zn and P levels can be reduced. The EPA pressured API to reduce the Zn and P levels to (hopefully) extend the life of the catalytic converter which is poisoned by Zn and P. They complied.

Use 20W-50 or 15W-40 oil. Recommended brands, in no particular order, include:

Brad Penn 20W-50
Valvoline VR-1 20W-50
Kendall GT 20W-50
Chevron Delo 15W40
Exxon Delvac 15W-40
Shell Rotella 15W-40
SWEPCO 15W-40

There are others as well.

Steve Weiner offers these thoughts:

Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

Hi,

Assuming that Porsche owners wish to stay informed and educated about an important topic, I've clipped a press release from JGibbs Racing about some changes coming in Sept.

Its no cause for panic or concern for people already using a good product in their 911's, but may be something to consider for those who haven't.

------------------

In 2004, API SM/GF-4 licensed oils hit the marketplace, and about 12 months later, articles and technical bulletins began to appear warning consumers of the risks of using low Zinc/Phosphorus API SM/GF-4 rated oils in flat tappet engines.

Today, the word is out – motor oils have changed. In 2010, passenger car engine oils change again, and heavy duty diesel trucks get catalytic converters.

This time, consider yourself forewarned.

API SN – ILSAC GF-5 licensed oil will hit the shelves in October of 2010, and this new oil specification places greater emphasis on protecting catalytic converters than previous oil standards. While this is good news for emissions, improved catalytic converter life has proven to be detrimental to flat-tappet camshaft life.

Another change associated with API SN/ILSAC GF-5 oils will be greater fuel economy performance. This improvement in fuel economy will be achieved by increased use of polymers called Viscosity Modifiers. These polymers help a “thin” oil act “thicker” under low stress conditions. While the liberal use of polymers helps improve fuel economy in passenger car engines, race engines produce shear stresses that can “tear” these polymers. When these polymers are sheared, your oil losses viscosity, and that can lead to increased wear.

More than ever before, engine builders, racers and hot rodders need to be aware that API rated products are “compromised” due to Passenger Car OEM requirements for improved catalytic converter life, fuel economy, and engine cleanliness.

To achieve these goals, oil marketers must reduce the Phosphorus, Sulfur and Zinc levels in their oils (.08), and they must use more polymers and aggressive detergents. While these changes are good for modern low rpm, overhead cam engines, older push rod engines and high RPM race engines need lubricants with higher levels of Phosphorus, Sulfur and Zinc as well as lower levels of polymers and detergents.

You don’t need to worry. You just need to choose the correct type of oil for your application.
----------------------------------------

Just keep using a product containing 1100-1200ppi of Zinc & Phosphorus and you'll be just fine.

[KNS]

woywitka,

A search will always reveal much info but don't ever feel discouraged to ask questions here or anywhere on this board. Yes, the info on this thread can seem overwhelming.

Thanks, Harry for the continual updating on the good stuff...

[woywitka]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Tom,

Does this help?



Steve Weiner offers these thoughts:

He says use 20W50 motor oil. And "other brands work" as long as they meet the requirements. But can I use "diesel motor oil"? I'm used to far more durable engines where stuff like this does not matter.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by woywitka

He says use 20W50 motor oil. And "other brands work" as long as they meet the requirements. But can I use "diesel motor oil"? I'm used to far more durable engines where stuff like this does not matter.

These aree "diesel oils" and would be expected to be ok:

Chevron Delo 15W40
Exxon Delvac 15W-40
Shell Rotella 15W-40
SWEPCO 15W-40

It is not an issue of a "more durable" engine, it is more of an issue that for vehicle makers to meet new requirements for lower emissions and better fuel economy, they have needed to compromise the ability of motor oil to control wear on highly srtressed surfaces (cams and flat tappets). The API research is clear on the need.

[cnavarro]

Swepco is the oil diesel oil on that list I would use. The rest are reformulated products. Swepco 306 is still API SL/CI-4 rated.

[GaryR]

Mobil One V-Twin 20W50 and have the best of both worlds.

[bkreigsr]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

....Also, using Mg or Na based detergents (which cost more) in conjunction with lower levels of the cheaper Ca based detergent also promotes better adhesion of ZDDP films on wear surfaces.
The flip side is these oils with lower detergents that provide the best wear characteristics usually cost more AND have to be changed more often.....

so, after two years of BP use in my 930, the Na content has gone from 3 ( Valvoline) to 290ppm (BP)
I'm assuming this is a good thing? .....as long as change intervals are 3,000 miles or less?
Bill K

[Steve@Rennsport]

One small note about diesel oils,....

These products are formulated to hold large quantities of soot in suspension for long drain intervals and their chemistries are specific to those operating conditions and demands. Further, diesel engines do not run at 6K RPM so they don't need anti-foam agents.

My best advice is to use diesel oils in vehicles powered by those types of IC engines and use a good automotive product in a dry-sump 911.

JMHO, of course.

[Roc Doc]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Back in the day, switching to Synthetic oil caused appaerent leaks. Now adays, it is my understanding that there is an additive in the synthetic oil to stop this problem.

I have run Mobil 1 and Amsoil in the early 90's, as well as Redline Synthetic after that, with some Valvoline dino oil in between, and every time I ran synthetic oil, I had some oil leakage, not bad, but a few drips overnight. I recently changed to Amsoil V-Twin (after reading this thread), and have had no problems with leakage, so they must have done something to the formulation. BTW, my engine has about 140k on it.

[woywitka]

Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

One small note about diesel oils,....

These products are formulated to hold large quantities of soot in suspension for long drain intervals and their chemistries are specific to those operating conditions and demands. Further, diesel engines do not run at 6K RPM so they don't need anti-foam agents.

My best advice is to use diesel oils in vehicles powered by those types of IC engines and use a good automotive product in a dry-sump 911.

JMHO, of course.

Hey Steve,

the reason I mention the GTX 20W 50 Diesel is it makes a claim that it meets all manufacturers requirements for Gasoline engines, and foaming at higher revs is not unique to only Porsche gasoline engines. This oil also meets the requirements on the first page.

[dshepp806]

I'll stick with Charlie's data and recco's. BP 20W50,..every 3K miles (NO additives needed),..and could give a crap about what this oil's gonna' cost me (shipped to my door from Charlie).

As to concern, this USED to be one of my highest,...now, it's no longer a concern (and hasn't been, for a while now),..so I'm no longer an "overly-concerned-Porsche-owner", as to his oil selection.

Removed oil is ALWAYS run for testing,..it's in my "budget"......

Thanks, Charlie, for all of your work and info.

Best,

Doyle

[RWebb]

what exactly is the incremental expense from running Brad Penn??

work out the number rel. to a cheaper oil -- then divide by the total cost of an oil change - filter + any labor

I don't find it real high...

esp. when compared with engine rebuilds
- tire replacements
- tune ups
- and all the cosmetic accessories that I see people using

[woywitka]

This is not a question of saving money, this is a question of availability. I want a reasonable oil that is locally available and acessible.

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by bkreigsr

so, after two years of BP use in my 930, the Na content has gone from 3 ( Valvoline) to 290ppm (BP)
I'm assuming this is a good thing? .....as long as change intervals are 3,000 miles or less?
Bill K

The benefits of Mg and Na based detergents are when they replace Ca. All detergents attack the ZDDP shear film. The Mg and Na are less aggressive about it while still doing their job of keeping the engine clean. Ca will degrade the total Zn and P in the oil quicker so you will need to change the oil more often.

You want just the right amount of detergents. Too little (like a full race oil) will allow gunk to build up in a street engine which sees limited use, cold starts, and long change intervals. Too much (like Castrol GTX (it even has "Ca" in the name )) will use up the Zn and P too quickly and will "clean" the ZDDP right off the cam or prevent it from forming proper films.