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Oh I forgot I had some head work done, euro fuel lines and fuel distributor and yes I could make 400+ at 1.1-1.2 bar but the engine would go from fat tune to lean over the rev range. I spent a tonof money on Motec as did David and it is not a panacea we both ran into problems, albeit exceedingly more drivable across the rev range. I will hopefully be posting my numbers on Monday, the good thing is I benchmarked the engine before the conversion as well. Do a search on Olli on rennlist forhis astounding numbers.
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Old 07-14-2007, 03:25 PM
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My car had some head work, the manifold extrude honed, "real" headers (not GHL, etc), euro lines, tuned WUR (by me) to give a flat AF curve, fuel head mod (probably not needed), a STOCK airbox, a Kokeln turbo and IC, matched injectors, 964 cams and I'm sure something else I can't think of. It put out consistent 420 RWHP (and 390 ftlbs) at one bar. When I tore the motor apart (to go to EFI), it was in pretty good shape. One last point - it idled perfectly, started every time and could be driven daily.

As a side note, I spent almost 3 hours and 100 miles street tuning my EFI system today. I enjoyed the hell out of it because its running incredibly well, but I'm not quite happy with the results yet. Sure, WOT is fine - whoopee - most people can tune that. But add 85 degree ambient, heavy traffic, 85 mph freeway, then stop and go, cold start, hot start, idle, ignition timing, 4 gears and so on, all on an air-cooled, turbo-charged, rear mounted 1979 technology motor - this is not easy. Oh yah, add boost to the process at varying RPM and you'll get an idea of how tricky EFI really is.

A good running CIS car is not so bad.

Sorry for the hijack.

Last edited by DonE; 07-14-2007 at 04:07 PM..
Old 07-14-2007, 04:04 PM
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If I had the EFI project to do over, I'd probably do the same thing just because I'm a hardcore DIY'r and this was just the next in a procession of bike and car projects. Do I wonder now if I should have just bought a used 996TT? Sure, but that can be another project. I can't imagine not looking forward to the next project. The problem is I can't see getting rid of this car so I'm going to need more garage space and of course more money .
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:39 PM
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Schnele - you know you're right, it's easy for me to make these great claims when I don't have to back them up. I consider myself an honest person so I figure you should take my word for it. Well this is the internet and you shouldn't just blindly accept things.

You could write a book on tuning and modifying CIS just like the many books written about EFI. It is a moot point now but I'm sure something could have been done to fix your CIS problem. More and more folks are starting to surface with 400+RWHP CIS 930s with good A/F ratios to redline. Not a lot of those guys are interested in reducing lag or increasing fuel mileage so they don't go the extra mile.

The only measurements that truely matter are the A/F readings. Several folks have posted those. I think Craig did most recently. You can also see boost threshold on a dyno sheet. Mileage is a little tricky. The best data for that comes off of a GPS sense odometers are sometimes optimistic.

Digressions asside, the riginal posting inquired how difficult and how expensive is it to convert CIS to EFI. The simple answer is it is not that mechanically difficult. The tuning is the difficult part. It is expensive. Even if you did all the mechanical work and tuning yourself it would cost several thousand dollars. There are alternatives such as MegaSquirt that allow you to go as far as building the actual computer boards yourself. At that point it becomes a time thing.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DonE


A good running CIS car is not so bad.
Especially when you shave tons of weight from your car.... It actually becomes quite a rocket!! Mine was very quick before I spun the rod bearings!!
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:13 PM
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i think sand man had his in the 20's on gas milage and upper 400 hp with cis and and adjustable wur with the speed switch
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88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
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Old 07-15-2007, 09:47 AM
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I'm not buying the 20mpg with any fuel system. Maybe downhill with a tailwind. I'm still getting about 10 mpg with EFI, although I've never driven the car without getting into the boost.
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Old 07-15-2007, 11:00 AM
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20+mpg is obtainable on the highway off boost. The moment you get into boost it's all over. I get about 5-7mpg on the track, about 12-15mpg in town (some boost ) and 20+mpg on the highway with my low gearing. If I had a taller 5th gear it would be even better.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 07-15-2007, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maxx1
Well, thanks for the input. It looks like for my budget I am going to be limited to the 400 hp mark. Actually, 400 horsepower isn't all that bad .... it will kick butt on 90% of the cars on the street, and considering the 930 hooks up and launches so well, it will beat many cars with more HP.
That is what I decided. Until you rebuild the engine for 50 or 100 more horsepower, EFI is a big waste of time and money because you will end up with no more than a maximum of 5-10% extra power (which is the outside limit that fine tuning your timing advance achieves). That is assuming you tune it perfectly.

People don't often mention that an EFI system needs to be tuned for all kinds of parameters, such as the coldest day of the year and the hottest day of the year and everything in between. Your EFI might work great at the dyno, and then need several months of real world driving to really fine tune perfectly.

If you can make sure your CIS is dumping enough gas to keep your AFR at 12.2, you will be okay.

EFI is essentially optimizing the timing and tweaking the amount of fuel on the set up you already have in place. You could add EFI now and decide to go with a different manifold and everything else when you actually rebuild the engine down the road and you will need to redo your EFI......That is a waste.

If you want down and dirty performance, drop your tranny and redo your gears. Lower 4th a lot, and lower 3rd a little. Or just lower whatever gears you have trouble shifting into on the boost, in other words, whichever gears you are finding yourself out of the power band when you shift to them. No more expensive than an EFI kit, and you end up with a new tranny.

For CIS, imagine auto is coming out with a fully programable system, and they already have a fuel head to deliver more fuel if you are running lean. That will be worth checking into.
Old 07-15-2007, 02:06 PM
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I agree with most of the folks here that EFI really isn't worth the added expense over CIS, but if you love working on engines it's the cat's meow . It's so cool to be able to bring up data or make fuel and ignition changes with a keystroke.

As Don mentioned, it's a bear to get it balanced for on/off boost, cold start, part throttle, etc. But when it works, it's like magic. My tuner finished most of the dyno tuning on Friday and I've been tuning from data logging since then and now it's running great. I still have to do more tuning especially while someone's driving, but I sure like it so far.

I just checked and my mileage over the last few days has been 12.5 mpg and that includes quite a bit of dyno time. I've also found some very rich area when cruising at part throttle, so there's better mileage to come.
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Last edited by David; 07-15-2007 at 04:02 PM..
Old 07-15-2007, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
EFI is a big waste of time and money because you will end up with no more than a maximum of 5-10% extra power
I strongly disagree. EFI puts the 930 in a different class of sportscar. It almost erases the 30+ years that have gone by since the 930 was designed. EFI enables you to take a 300 hp 80's car and transform it into a 600+ hp semi modern car.

I have 505 rwhp at .85 bar and have more tuning to do. I imagine I could get 600 rwhp out of this car with a few more changes (intercooler, tuning, ...).

I do agree that EFI is not necessary. I'll even agree that it is not financially worthwhile for street cars. However, don't get the wrong idea about it's capabilities. It can really transform these cars.

Here is another perspective. Try beating a Z06 on the track with your best CIS 930 and you are very likely to be disappointed. But with EFI you will rule the track.

DISCLAIMER: When I mention EFI in this posting I am assuming all the normal upgrades as well (turbo, intercooler, heads, intake, headers, ...) This is part of the "while you are in there" effect.
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DRV2FST
I strongly disagree. EFI puts the 930 in a different class of sportscar. It almost erases the 30+ years that have gone by since the 930 was designed. EFI enables you to take a 300 hp 80's car and transform it into a 600+ hp semi modern car.

I have 505 rwhp at .85 bar and have more tuning to do. I imagine I could get 600 rwhp out of this car with a few more changes (intercooler, tuning, ...).

I do agree that EFI is not necessary. I'll even agree that it is not financially worthwhile for street cars. However, don't get the wrong idea about it's capabilities. It can really transform these cars.

Here is another perspective. Try beating a Z06 on the track with your best CIS 930 and you are very likely to be disappointed. But with EFI you will rule the track.

DISCLAIMER: When I mention EFI in this posting I am assuming all the normal upgrades as well (turbo, intercooler, heads, intake, headers, ...) This is part of the "while you are in there" effect.
What I said was that EFI is a waste of time to put in now if you are going to do your horsepower engine mods later on. In other words, putting the cart before the horse.

CIS is fine for a mild engine, and when you add the 100 extra horespower and know what your plan is, then you add EFI according to what manifold you will use and what your fuel needs are instead of doing an EFI conversion twice, when you don't have a lot to gain in horsepower from EFI on your stock engine.

No one is going to suggest that EFI on a 500 hp car is optional, but on a stock 82 with a aftermarket exhaust and k-27, you don't need EFI before your eventual rebuild. And you may end up buying new EFI fuel injector parts if you change things inside your engine or go to a 3.2 manifold, and you will need to tune it again. So why not wait?

You will gain a LOT more with 7 or 8 grand on a stock engine by doing other things first, like weight reduction and lowered highway gears. A 10% weight reduction is MUCH MUCH better than a 10% power increase, and changing gears is like adding 50 horsepower.
Old 07-15-2007, 05:31 PM
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I have Schnele's CIS system on my engine now, I have SC heads, 3.3 pistons and cylinders, built on a 79 SC 3.0 engine so there are some differences. I have also plumbed in a 7th injector that I can adjust to fire
on any given boost pressure and a MSD BTM retard ignition and twinplug.
I hope I have better luck than Lincoln at getting it to run well through the entire RPM band. I am not out to meet any horsepower numbers so thats not a concern, as I am not trying to have the fastest car on the road, but if I am anywhere close to 400hp in my 914 that puts me around 5lbs per hp which aint to bad.
I plan on breaking the engine in on the dyno and tune from there, if things go well the next few weeks getting it all back together I should have some results within a month.
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Old 07-15-2007, 06:01 PM
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Kirk - a typical laggy 930 will have a difficult time with a torque monster Z06 on the track. The type of engine building and tuning I have described is not typical and will result in a CIS 930 that can handle a Z06 on the track. Would you like to come down to Huntsville and see some firsthand proof that it can be done? Shoot me an e-mail and we'll set it up. The only catch is you have to take me for a ride in your beast!
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Old 07-15-2007, 06:18 PM
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If you are looking at comparing peak HP between the CIS and EFI, you are missing most of the value of EFI. And in my opinion, most chassis dyno's are crap for providing "real" comparative HP, but OK - you have to start somewhere. There were three things my conversion improved - throttle response, application and improvement of torque, and HP. Even if I did not gain a single additional HP, the throttle response and quicker torque would put me in front of any CIS car. A CIS car requires that the metering plate move before fuel is added which takes significant time (relatively speaking) and the ignition timing operates in a very narrow window. With EFI, it adds additional fuel measured in milliseconds and is completely adjustable. Couple this with the ability to advance the ignition (anywhere) and its see ya later CIS. So, my point is, don't consider EFI just because you want more HP. I gained less than 100 extra HP, but it drives like a completely different car now.

With all this being said, I still really like CIS.

Last edited by DonE; 07-15-2007 at 06:38 PM..
Old 07-15-2007, 06:36 PM
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Don - you are assuming that the CIS ignition is left stock. You can eleminate a lot of evils by getting inside the dizzy. Also while the intake plumbing of the CIS designs in a spongy throttle it is made much worse by turbo lag and other issues. When you take away these issues CIS and EFI come closer together.

EFI will always be quicker and more precise but there comes a point where it is not so markedly significant.

Kirk has contacted me and we are arranging to get together. You have my impressions as a defender of CIS. It's a hard sell but I think Kirk will appreciate the capabilities of a well set up CIS turbo.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 07-15-2007, 07:18 PM
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If you're getting 20 mpg in any 930 then you're not driving it right.
Old 07-16-2007, 05:16 AM
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Old 07-16-2007, 05:23 AM
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Ha! You're right about that!
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 07-16-2007, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RarlyL8
[snip]
Kirk has contacted me and we are arranging to get together. You have my impressions as a defender of CIS. It's a hard sell but I think Kirk will appreciate the capabilities of a well set up CIS turbo.
I think there is a place solid and completely valid argument for both. CIS is proven, it modifies well up to a certain point and is fairly simple. EFI is proven, can handle any engine config, but is far from simple. I like them both but for different reasons.
Old 07-16-2007, 05:59 AM
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