MS3 Pro Conversion

[dos531]

Originally Posted by smurfbus

I do have a head temp sensor jammed between fins behind cyl4 heater tin. I think e85 is just slower to heat the engine.

I know its going to get better step by step but speed density is just OKish for engine management.

I hope I can get gear dependant maps somehow later on. Or boost/gear like apexi avcr has from speed and revs.

Just add a vss signal and you can use boost by gear on the ms3pro.

Speed density is more difficult to tune for perfect driveability than a maf based system, but its certainly doable. There are still new cars that use speed density calculations after all. My fiesta st daily driver uses speed density from the factory and it works perfectly.

[smurfbus]

Pancake manifold might be a bit troublesome too but Id like to keep it. Its bored to 38mm. Trimming the injectors per cyl might be on the cards later too.

Light throttle cruise is most unsteady as its very gear dependant. Lower gears might be spot on but highway goes very lean. I still have 58 lowest vacuum on overrun and idle hoovers around 64-66 with 800rpm and now 12btdc. it was about the same with 6btdc but I feel I had more fluctuation with that low idle timing as it raises sharply for good low rpm cruise on lower gears.

[dos531]

I agree that light throttle is difficult to get perfect. I added a bit of afr ego correction for those cells and just run it a little rich there.
I haven't heard of any issues with the pancake manifold other than lack of flow for very high hp applications.

Let me know if you need any help with the sequential setup since I just did it.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[smurfbus]

How fast is your ego correction? I have it set up up to 25% in all vacuum cells but it takes time before it corrects or the difference is too big?

The engine runs fine lean or rich but obviously Id like to get the cells close to best compromise to save fuel.

[philip j]

Originally Posted by jpilcher

Also looking for some high Z 80 Lbs. injectors. Ev6 Connectors. Longer stye.

Hey John, what injectors did you end up using? This is also something I'm on the fence with. I'm using a 964 fuel pressure regulator to get more out of my 57 cc's, but really have to go bigger. Philip

[smurfbus]

BTW, this morning commute was very nice although it was warmer at 60F. No stalls or hickups and AF was at 14 even with slight WUE still active.

[jpilcher]

Originally Posted by philip j

Hey John, what injectors did you end up using? This is also something I'm on the fence with. I'm using a 964 fuel pressure regulator to get more out of my 57 cc's, but really have to go bigger. Philip

Hey Phillip

Stuck with the 57 lbs High Z EV14 Bosch Injectors. FPR is set at 43.5. Using the Aeromotive 1000 FPR. Not 100% sure where I am at in terms of Duty Cycle.
My plan is to run 1.1 to 1.2 bar of boost. Waiting for dyno session to determine. Keep running out of road.

No plans to run E85.

I am planning on installing EBC this weekend. Having trouble source EBC fittings for hose. I bought the DIYautotune Kit, and it came with these small plastic fittings.
Appears to be a 5/16" Fine thread. I will also be hooking up VSS for boost by gear accessibility.

Loving the Ms3 Pro.

Regards

John

[philip j]

John, I'm running the same injectors at 43 PSI, I'm about 90% duty cycle at 1 bar. I'd like the ID 1000's but they are a little pricy! The EBC sounds like a good feature, I could really use that as my car gets squirrely in 1st and 2nd. ;-).

[jpilcher]

Originally Posted by philip j

John, I'm running the same injectors at 43 PSI, I'm about 90% duty cycle at 1 bar. I'd like the ID 1000's but they are a little pricy! The EBC sounds like a good feature, I could really use that as my car gets squirrely in 1st and 2nd. ;-).

You have a lot more power, due to your mods. Heads and cams. You must be well over 500 ho. EBC would help to get power to the road.
MS3 Pro also has a traction control feature.
I still have to look into this.

With regards to the injectors you could try adjusting the injector timing to optimize when the injector sprays on the back of the valve.
It can help to reduce required injector duty cycle. I believe Tippy had touched on this.
You could also increase the FUel Pressure, to help with duty cycle.

[dap930]

John,

I purchased 10mm (or were they 12mm?) banjo fittings with a hose barb from Belmetric to fit the wastegate ports. You will also need a double port banjo bolt for the lower wastegate port to connect two hoses. Also, don't forget the seal washers.

I need to upgrade to larger injectors. I am running 55lb/hr injectors on my car and my duty cycle can be around 94% in cool weather at 1.2bar boost and 11.5 AFR @6500 RPM. At this level my injector pulse width is 18ms. For sequential there is not that much time to get all the fuel in at 6500 RPM, I have to have the injector pulse ending over have way through the intake valve opening. With larger injectors, the high load, high boost pulse width will be shorter, allowing all if not most of the injection to occur with the intake valve shut. This is all based on the theory that it is best to have all the fuel injected with the intake valve closed. Not sure the theory really applies to WOT operation though.

[jpilcher]

Hi Dennis

What size injectors are you planning on?
Have you had your car dynoed?

Thanks for info on EBC.

John

[dos531]

Originally Posted by jpilcher

Hey Phillip

Stuck with the 57 lbs High Z EV14 Bosch Injectors. FPR is set at 43.5. Using the Aeromotive 1000 FPR. Not 100% sure where I am at in terms of Duty Cycle.
My plan is to run 1.1 to 1.2 bar of boost. Waiting for dyno session to determine. Keep running out of road.

No plans to run E85.

I am planning on installing EBC this weekend. Having trouble source EBC fittings for hose. I bought the DIYautotune Kit, and it came with these small plastic fittings.
Appears to be a 5/16" Fine thread. I will also be hooking up VSS for boost by gear accessibility.

Loving the Ms3 Pro.

Regards

John

I think youll more injector for 1.2 bar. If you're using megalogviewer the injector duty cycle should be called duty cycle 1 if I recall correctly. You should try to keep it under 80%. The siemens 80lb injectors would be an easy swap.

Let me know how the ebc tuning goes. I played with it a long time and could never get it to work correctly. I know they made some changes to the closed loop boost control system in the recent firmware update, but I havent tried it again.

[dap930]

John,

I have not dynoed the car yet because I know I need larger injectors. I have done a number of datalogs through the year to dial in the VE table in the upper regions. I would like some ID725's or ID1000's but have not pulled the trigger.
You will definitely need larger injectors for 1.2bar boost and your larger engine size.

Phillip,

I had trouble setting up MS3 boost control also. I spent a lot of time datalogging valve DC for various RPM's and loads in the "set up" mode to populate the initial values table. When I switched to the basic mode, I would get overboost spikes when shifting from second to third, yet I had good control from 2500 to 6500 RPM. I adjusted the slider to no avail. It was as if the PID control could not react fast enough when boost come back up after the shift. I could not change the MAC valve DC in that region (around 4200 to 4400 RPM's) because it would mess up the linear pull from 2500 to 6500 RPM. The data logs showed that the DC from the Initial Values table was being applied after the shift but the boost just spiked. The domes on these wastegates are rather large, I came to the conclusion that venting the pressure from the top of the wastegate was taking too long. So, I changed to a high frequency MAC valve that operates at 39Hz. I also left the muffler off the valve vent port to reduce any restriction and kept the hose runs short. Now when I shift, boost rises to 224 - 226kpa (target boost is 217, boost cut set at 235kpa) and settles back. This is in the basic mode with slider at 200. I could go to the Advanced mode and tune the PID parameters but it works like it is. Of course all this varies depending on the turbo you are running, the exhaust manifold and muffler/zork. My GTX3071R spools up very quickly, yet will flow 50lb/min and is a good match for my 3.0 liter engine street driving.

[philip j]

found this for injector sizing... hope it copies.

RC Fuel Injection

[philip j]

surprising enough, it calculates that I could get by with 63 lb injectors at 500 CHP !

John, were not far off with the 57 lb injectors. ;-)

[jpilcher]

That's what I thought. I will have to post my VE table. My numbers are fairly low in the boost bins up to 5000 rpm @ 9 psi. This is in comparison to DAP930's VE table.
I double and triple checked my datalogs, they are bang on. Car is running really well. Idle is smooth @ 14.7. Today I added the Acceleration Enrichment. It made a big difference. I found the fittings I needed for my boost controller. I plan on adding this tomorrow hopefully. I will also be hooking up the VSS, to datalog speed.

Question for the brain trust. Where are most guys mounting their EBC?
I was thinking of mounting mine below the engine tin close to the wastegate.
That would allow me to keep the hose length shorter. I have read that this can be a problem. I am running a Tial F46 wastegate.

I have a new 2 wire CHT sensor on order. My current setup is using a single wire CHT. It seems to work okay, but I have noticed temperature spikes in my datalogs. Matt Crammer on the MS3 forums recommends a 2 wire CHT. he says there is a lot of grounding noise with the single wire.

[jpilcher]

Originally Posted by philip j

surprising enough, it calculates that I could get by with 63 lb injectors at 500 CHP !

John, were not far off with the 57 lb injectors. ;-)

That's why I suggested you increase your Fuel Pressure. How much boost are you running?

[smurfbus]

Under tin is HOT. I would take lenght over hot anyday.

Question:
how can I get timing on dash gauge? There is not spark advance on the mouse right menu?

[jpilcher]

Install the Raspeberry PI. Small footprint
7" touch screen running full version of Tunerstudio. It may fit where ashtray is.
Then you can monitor advance, and adjust as needed.

[philip j]

Originally Posted by jpilcher

Install the Raspeberry PI. Small footprint
7" touch screen running full version of Tunerstudio. It may fit where ashtray is.
Then you can monitor advance, and adjust as needed.

So which is the best device for overall programming, ease of use etc. Do you guys have a designated laptop/blackberry? Which operating system is required for full operation of programs? I'm still back in the dark ages when it comes to technology. Philip