I need your Small Displacement Turbo Help! (Long)

[911st]

I'd sell off the goodies and pick up a 84-84 3.2 long block for about $5k with the Nickisel (sp) cylinders. Already has some of the best turbo cams, intake manfold, fuel rails. Just fit J&E pistons and almost there.

[BARknucklehead]

Originally Posted by jpnovak

I have looked into this too. I have spec'd a similar build for the next year or so.

btw, the 997 Borg Warner VTG turbos are electronically operated. I have not been able to figure out if they are direct voltage or PWM actuated. yes, Megasquirt can run this system on either a boost value, rpm or possibly both depending on your ability to code. You would use the configurable output to run the system.

Now just need to figure out how to fit a ducktail under the decklid for 350 HP of hidden, sleeper fun!

Off to continue looking for a donor engine.

FYI, I don't think you need to wait for the sequencer to arrive. The standard MS unit should function just fine - especially considering the rpm range where you will be building boost.

Is it correct to say that if it is PWM, we need to puzzle out the frequency?

[jpnovak]

Yes, This should be easy to do on a bench with an adjustable frequency generator. Find the turbos and I can do the test. I can even start to code the .ini file for MS. This would be a custom mod to the code and I can almost guarantee there is not a specific example out there. However, the IAC and other controls work on PWM. It would be a matter of porting the code to the correct output and path.

I was looking into a mechanical system for variable boost geometry that I would drive with a servo using the MS. I am thankful for the identification of the VTG systems. Sure make life easier.

[BARknucklehead]

I assume since we won't use an IAC on a 911, that output could be reprovisioned for this kind of usage. Glad you can code - I work at a big software company, but my codin skills go as far as parsing code...can't write a lick, except for some basic SQL.

Yea, I know MS-II will do the trick, especially if going MFI. The only real advantage of the Sequencer is sequential injection. There are plenty of uys out there already running single spark COP set ups using run-of-the-mill v3 boards.

Now to find the turbos - this is going to be a task as I have only been able to locate one new PAIR and you don't want to know the price (as much as a Supertec rebuilt 2.7RS, soup to nuts ). I am a fan of used parts and the discount they bring, as we all are. Someone out there is going to bin their 997TT eventually.

[BARknucklehead]

Originally Posted by jpnovak

I was looking into a mechanical system for variable boost geometry that I would drive with a servo using the MS. I am thankful for the identification of the VTG systems. Sure make life easier.

BTW, are you going with an ECU controlled BOV and pump enrichment? If so, there will oviously be even more custom coding to be done. Are there enough ouputs to control VTG, BOV and Enrichment from a v3 MS-II board?

[BARknucklehead]

Originally Posted by 911st

I'd sell off the goodies and pick up a 84-84 3.2 long block for about $5k with the Nickisel (sp) cylinders. Already has some of the best turbo cams, intake manfold, fuel rails. Just fit J&E pistons and almost there.

Yes, I understand the logic, but I am a contrarian. Soapbox time...

Nothing grates at the fabric of my motoring being more than continual rote recital of "there's no replacement for displacement". I say there is "no replacement for a unique creation." Convention has its place for those who prefer to see a beautiful picture vs. relishing the challenge of solving the puzzle in pursuit of the picture. Both are great and totally subjective...the former just isn't for me.

My recipe: Add serious revs, mix it with positive manifold pressure, throw in some exotic alloys along with a healthy helping of currency and voila, nirvana.

The road less travelled may have more bumps and tollbooths, but the scenery is FANTASTIC. That's why it takes me 3 days to drive to California vs. 12 hours.

Hell, I may never even get to the end of a given journey, but damn wasn't it fun taking that last corner just a little too fast...

- Edit - Did I ever mention that I have a real disdain for common plenum intakes? Even Varioram. ICK.

[Flieger]

You must use the MFI

[BARknucklehead]

Originally Posted by Flieger

You must use the MFI

You are such an enabler.

BTW, since we are completely off track and ignoring the bounds of sanity or putting limits on complexity, why not add water/methanol fogging to the mix?

http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=8



Could MS-II control that, too? Yep...

[BARknucklehead]

A decision has been made on turbo selection! I just sourced this bad boy:

Mitsubishi TD05HR-16G6-10.5T From The Lancer Evo VIII.





Here's the compressor map - it's good for over 400HP:



All of that power and lightning fast spool up for $300. Not bad. This is a dual scroll turbo, so I am going to have some stainless fun fabbing up the equal length pipes from my headers into the split mouth flange sometime soon:



You'll notice that you need to keep the two exhaust banks completely separate until after gases exit the turbo to reap the benefits of twin scroll:



Here's the O2 housing I procured used, as well. Amazing the things you can pick up used from the Sube/Evo sites for next to nothing:




We are on our way...

[beepbeep]

Yeah, that's a nice turbo. I'm running TE05-turbine turbo on my 2L 4-cylinder clunker and it reached full boost @ 2500 RPM before I fiddled with ignition and cam timing which made it a bit laggier. But full boost around 2500-2700 RPM will be fully possible on 2.2L.

How are you going to solve water mantle cooling? A short cooler loop with electrical pump? I wouldn't run it without water.

P.S. Be prepared for slight boost taper on high revs if used with mechanical wastegate control. You can straighten up the boost on high revs with ECU-controlled PWD-operated valve but make sure you don't overspeed the shaft by asking it to boost 1 bar at 7000 RPM or such.

[juicersr]

Originally Posted by BARknucklehead

Yes, I understand the logic, but I am a contrarian. Soapbox time...

Nothing grates at the fabric of my motoring being more than continual rote recital of "there's no replacement for displacement". I say there is "no replacement for a unique creation." Convention has its place for those who prefer to see a beautiful picture vs. relishing the challenge of solving the puzzle in pursuit of the picture. Both are great and totally subjective...the former just isn't for me.

My recipe: Add serious revs, mix it with positive manifold pressure, throw in some exotic alloys along with a healthy helping of currency and voila, nirvana.

The road less travelled may have more bumps and tollbooths, but the scenery is FANTASTIC. That's why it takes me 3 days to drive to California vs. 12 hours.

Hell, I may never even get to the end of a given journey, but damn wasn't it fun taking that last corner just a little too fast...

- Edit - Did I ever mention that I have a real disdain for common plenum intakes? Even Varioram. ICK.

++1

2.1 liters, MFI, 540hp @8000 RPM's... it doesn't get much sweeter than this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWeLuglJr9I

Officially sub'd for the long haul on this one.

Good luck!

[BARknucklehead]

Originally Posted by beepbeep

How are you going to solve water mantle cooling? A short cooler loop with electrical pump? I wouldn't run it without water.

One better - one of these driving off of the passenger side cam housing:

Will use a rear fender well mounted radiator or heat exchanger.

Originally Posted by beepbeep

P.S. Be prepared for slight boost taper on high revs if used with mechanical wastegate control. You can straighten up the boost on high revs with ECU-controlled PWD-operated valve but make sure you don't overspeed the shaft by asking it to boost 1 bar at 7000 RPM or such.

Full ECU boost control is planned. Potential for boost taper is fine - worth the risk given the low price of the turbo. I can always upgrade the housing, compressor wheel or the entire turbo later with an Evo IX or Evo X turbo and still have it bolt up.

[BARknucklehead]

Originally Posted by juicersr

++1

2.1 liters, MFI, 540hp @8000 RPM's... it doesn't get much sweeter than this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWeLuglJr9I

Officially sub'd for the long haul on this one.

Good luck!

This is my inspiration.

[kenikh]

Originally Posted by beepbeep

P.S. Be prepared for slight boost taper on high revs if used with mechanical wastegate control. You can straighten up the boost on high revs with ECU-controlled PWD-operated valve but make sure you don't overspeed the shaft by asking it to boost 1 bar at 7000 RPM or such.

Alright, the cat is out of the bag and it is time to revisit an old thread as things are are moving again. I was BARknucklehead trying to be stealth while in research mode...

I bagged the turbo above for an Evo IX version, which stock is both more efficient at spoolup and has longer legs on top. Couple that with the fact I just sent it out to Chad Block for a full performance build to BBK Lite spec and you have a turbo that makes 380WHP at 25 psi (1.7BAR) topping @7500 RPM on 93 octane in an Evo IX:

Quote from CBRD:
The BBK is offered in a LITE version which is a compressor upgrade only. Utilizing a lightweight aerodynamic Billet 47lbs min compressor wheel, this turbo spools incredibly quick making it a fantastic auto-x and street turbo. It has produced 400+whp on our dyno with the right supporting mods. The boost response between gears is actually quicker than stock. I would generally expect an EVO IX with basic bolt-ons (intake, fmic, cams, turboback) on 93 octane to produce around 365-375whp on our mustang dyno at 25psi with this turbo. (stock evo IX baselines at 225-230).

Latest progress is Jamie has all of my engine guts and is busy TFL coating the bearing surfaces, as well as heat coating the combustion bits. Once those come back, the bottom end goes together.

I have also settled on Brian's 1.5" headers. Ben and Brian have been saint's in dealing with my questions, BTW!

Once the long block is done, I will need to finally commit on the induction and engine management. Electronic MFI or pure EFI? Water/meth injection to support 25psi or even...29 psi??? Oh we'll see!

Anyway, the build is not dead and very much in motion. I'll start a fresh build thread once I start wrenching!

[Flieger]

I vote for the MFI. There have been a few people in the MFI thread talking about using a linear actuator directly on the rack to eliminate the chunk of metal ballast also called the regulator section.

[WERK I]

Originally Posted by kenikh

.......................edit for space.......................

Once the long block is done, I will need to finally commit on the induction and engine management. Electronic MFI or pure EFI? Water/meth injection to support 25psi or even...29 psi??? Oh we'll see!

Anyway, the build is not dead and very much in motion. I'll start a fresh build thread once I start wrenching!

My $0.02
I think there's nothing more beautiful than an MFI setup. But........
If you're toying with water/meth injection, varying boost levels, different turbo combinations, go with the ITB EFI. You just can't beat the programmability of a computer controlled injection system. An RSR-style ITB EFI is a thing of beauty. Besides, the plenum and IC is going to block the view to the MFI pump anyway.

[kenikh]

Originally Posted by WERK I

My $0.02
I think there's nothing more beautiful than an MFI setup. But........
If you're toying with water/meth injection, varying boost levels, different turbo combinations, go with the ITB EFI. You just can't beat the programmability of a computer controlled injection system. An RSR-style ITB EFI is a thing of beauty. Besides, the plenum and IC is going to block the view to the MFI pump anyway.

To be clear, my final fuelling and ignition solution is still up in the air. Once the longblock is built, I will make the final decision on where I go with it. That said, there are a few absolutes:

• I will be using my custom bored MFI stacks and TBs for this motor
• I will be using a custom water/air IC, designed and fabbed by me
• I wil be using knock control
• Water/meth injection will be used
• Visual stealth (early MFI motor) is a primary design goal

I have already conceptually laid out the IC and it won't obstruct an MFI pump. The design also allows the use of the stock airbox, with proper modifications, to remain in place for the ultimate in stealth looks and would hide the water/meth injectors, placed above the intake trumpets on the stacks.

There are still design challenges to overcome and although I do like the benefits of sequential EFI control, I am somewhat hesitant to have a big, honking fuel rail and EFI injector adapters below the TBs. Stealth is the main reason why I am considering MEFI (from this day forward, this will be my acronym for MFI w/ electronic fuel trim adjustment).

One thing at a time, though. The longblock design is sound and the rest can come after that is done.

So, stay tuned - once this litte project is out of the garage (a few more weeks), the motor build will begin. I'll also update my overall project thread on the car, but the motor will be a new thread in the Engine forum.

I'll keep you posted.

[jpnovak]

Well, well the secret is out.

I should have the coatings done shortly. I know you have busy with the paint project. I can't wait to see both of these projects going forward.

I think we should hide the fuel rails in the airbox for a "stealth Madonna" type setup. Then you can have the EFI and vintage looks. Crap now I gave away a secret to my 2.5 build. Then you just need to figure out how to get the stock airbox to seal against boost. I think a feax filter cover on the front with turbo inlets on the back would be cool. This shouldn't be too hard with your liquid charge cooling.

[kenikh]

Originally Posted by jpnovak

Well, well the secret is out.

Had to happen sooner or later.

Originally Posted by jpnovak

Then you just need to figure out how to get the stock airbox to seal against boost. I think a feax filter cover on the front with turbo inlets on the back would be cool. This shouldn't be too hard with your liquid charge cooling.

We should talk - I believe that I have that solution in hand.

[copbait73]

Originally Posted by kenikh

Had to happen sooner or later.



We should talk - I believe that I have that solution in hand.

I'm looking forward to seeing your maximum effort small bore turbo motor materialize.