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Ruf and special Porsche Value dilemma

Just a few thoughts, as this subject has been discussed, however my 2 cents worth as follows. Getting a RUF from the factory or thru a Ruf factory authorized build here in the good old USofA was not that easy or inexpensive. Now the current buyers get to own one for a lot less money. Once the fake (partial) ones are established the "real deal" ones will be harder to get ( $$$$ wise ) than they already are now. It has been a pattern when there are reproductions or partial make overs of the real thing, in this case RUF Kremer etc, that the "not the real deal" cars lower the value of the real ones. Once the real ones are established the prices of those tends to increase. The RUF controversy will sort itself out as to what the parameters of "real" are and then!!!!!. It may very well be such as in Ferrari, Muscle (copo types) of cars and others, there are now established levels of value based on what was original and what was added later albiet due to wrecks, deterioration or upgrades to more current performance standards, etc. What is clear is a factory or factory authorized original configuration are always the most sought after. This now may be the best time to get yours ( if that is your interest) as you will always hear the sad stories of the "I should have bought it " at events years later.

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Old 12-30-2009, 08:47 AM
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Hey Tony..

I agree with you somewhat on what's being said. However unlike a Ferrari or other low production exotic, these cars starteded life as a mass produced vehicle and were built/modified by a tuner.

Then not only did the "tuner" offer full build to suit vehicles.. they also offered and sold the same components over the counter and through distributors worldwide. The record keeping of what they built was shaky at best, and with that, it's usually pretty hard to verify or document if a particular car was tuner built, or built-up by others using the Tuners parts.

I kinda except these cars either way.. like I've said before, when you find a Ruf car that has more than gauges and wheels, it should be looked at a little more closely. Even as a car that someone built-up, the parts were only available through Ruf and nothing was cheap.

For what it's worth, if it's not an ROW vehicle, then it was probably built/converted here in the states by a Ruf distributor or an independent who bought parts from the US distributor. And for the record guys, I'm not talking about the Ruf Autocentre in TX, Tony is speaking before their time.

As for the Kremer and DP cars.. man I love those things and I'm always singing the "wish I hadda" song n that one. I've passed up two over the years, and owned one.. it was nothing really special, just a Kremer body on 3.0 Targa although it was done by them in Germany.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:48 AM
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Agreed
.In part I'm trying to get the thought up for the others than the ROW ones without the RUF/Kremer etc special VIN numbers they recieved at the factory when built and what the guidelines are to be used for the others. When the RUF guys were at CS Motorsports to modify a 993 TT they mentioned the etching that is engraved on the cars that a factory authorized conversion gets when they do it. Those I would consider close to what ROWs are as being authentic RUF if all paperwork is present. Now for the others that were built at RUF autherized outlets would seem to be at another level of "real deal cars'. Then on to the others that have all the RUF parts and were done by a regular Porsche shop. And lastly the ones with just the emblems and or looks parts and missing some or all of the go fast stuff. The jury is still out on what the value ratio will be decided by this forum and others, also by the hype and sale of all these variations that will form a definate pattern just as with the other collectable cars in the past. I will be paying close attention for part of the year especially as we have long winters here in the north country.,,,,Oh and on the Kremer Targa, was that offered in Hemmings about 10 + years ago somewhere in the southeast? I had looked into that one .
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Old 12-30-2009, 12:48 PM
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Yeah.. I see where you're going and rightfully so. Ruf didn't get into special vin #s until around late 89/early 90's after he was TUV certified and then recognized as a Manufacturer rather than a tuner. At that point he was able to get un/partial numbered tubs from Porsche AG. However, some of his earlier cars do have a metal Ruf ID plate attached.. very few though.

You're right also, no telling how this will pan out over the years. Not to mention, short of a CTR, most of the mods have been far surpassed by many tuners on these old 930s.. can you say EFI.

Funny, I understand that my current 930 had a bunch of Ruf things added in during it's 1st life. As the original owner first began his mods it got the exhaust, IC, gauges and pedals. Then came the wheels. Stayed that way until it received a full build several years later and the IC was swapped for an Andial unit. When I purchased it a number of years ago, the 2nd owner had sold the Ruf wheels and replaced them with Kenesis Super cups and replaced the Ruf muffler with a Stock one!!! He said the other was too loud. At least he kept it! It was interesting to listen to the cam rump, rump through the choked-down muffler. Bring the noise baby!

As for the Kremer Targa, this one had been in the area most of the 80's.. sometime in the early 90's, an errant minivan clipped the front.. broke the fenders and destroyed the spoiler. I bought it from the guy and repaired it. Could wait, and didn't want to spend the $$ for the proper spoiler/bumper so I used one from AIR, swapped out the 15'' 8 & 9" Fuchs for a set of Compomotive 16" 3pc 8.5 & 11Fuchs, and painted the car Candy Apple red!! She was a stunner.
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Old 12-30-2009, 02:44 PM
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Some of the earlier ones did have special Vin's assigned to the car. I know my 84 Kremer has a supplemental VIN altogether different than the factory assigned one and is on the EPA DOT releases also and the 1985 RUF in AZ with Texas plates just now going off ebay( I have been trying to buy it ) has a RUF suppliment VIN attached everywhere and stamped next to the Porsche VIN in the smugglers box area. As far as being officially and exclusively stamped from Porsche later in 89 90 is something I was not aware of so thanks for that info.
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:03 PM
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Would this be the type of RUF engine or VIN number that you would see if car was re-manufactured at the RUF factory in Germany?
Old 12-30-2009, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voitureltd View Post
Some of the earlier ones did have special Vin's assigned to the car. I know my 84 Kremer has a supplemental VIN altogether different than the factory assigned one and is on the EPA DOT releases also and the 1985 RUF in AZ with Texas plates just now going off ebay( I have been trying to buy it ) has a RUF suppliment VIN attached everywhere and stamped next to the Porsche VIN in the smugglers box area. As far as being officially and exclusively stamped from Porsche later in 89 90 is something I was not aware of so thanks for that info.
Yes, I have seen those plates on certain tuner cars before, including Ruf Cars. I've owned several Alpina cars and they also carried the supplemental ID tags.

But we should be clear on the Vin#s. These are "supplemental VIN#s or ID#s" assigned by Ruf.. or Kremer to identify that particular conversion by them.
Not the Vin # that identifies a vehicle from the manufacturer (Porsche) or for registration. Many of the tuners used these to authenticate a car that was either converted at thier facility or by thier authorized distributor dependant upon the level of build it reeived. That is to say a supplemental ID plate would not be affixed/asigned to a vehicle if it recieved only gauges, a steering wheel, IC and a set of wheels. However, counter to that.. it was about the money in the
go-go 80's, so I'm sure if one poneied-up.. you could probably get yourself an ID plate.

As for DOT & EPA, sometimes that really clouds the issue.. I have seen cars during the gray market days that had actually been re-vin'd by the state that they were held in and then sold. So when you look on the dash or "a" Pillar, and even in the tub, you find another number that had been issued by the state rivited in place! Like your Kremer, these guys didn't know what they were doing and called themselves covering all the bases.. that's why your ID tags are on the paperwork as well. All that was really needed was the actual vin.

I have a 356 Outlaw that was a euro spec model. in breaking out the VIN in translates as a 57. It was brought into the country in the very early 80's or late 70's. Somehow it ended up being titled as a 59!


I am familiar with the car in Az, I've been watching that one too.. nice piece! I noticed the Ruf plates on it as well. I will admit, that one has had me scratching my head and looking at the garage and wondering what I would be willing to part with for that.
Good luck with the chase... although I really hate when these dealers, or an auction house gets ahold of these car.. it usually clouds both the sale and the real value.

I have seen another car recently, advertised somewhere that had the plates also.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptyGarage View Post



Would this be the type of RUF engine or VIN number that you would see if car was re-manufactured at the RUF factory in Germany?
That's a nice shot.. that is a Ruf ID# from one of thier 5spd trannys. Usually a good indicator of what you have as not to many of trannys were installed with nothing else done to the car. Even if one of these cars did not have ID plates, but had one of these trans', I would think the car would warrant a closer look.

Is this one yours?
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Old 12-31-2009, 03:17 AM
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quote:Even if one of these cars did not have IDplates, but had one of these trans', I would think the car would warrant a closer look.

I have a 1977 930 with short bellhousing RUF 5spd tranny that fits into that "warrant a second look" catagory you mention. It was built as a street warrior car by Andial ,although not built by RUF, the 5speed trans along with other go fast stuff and period mods are still there, as it was built that way, back then. The Checkered Flag of Long Beach had it in on trade many years ago. A local Porsche racer and club member who went to school in LA in the 80s remembers the car from street antics it participated in.
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Old 12-31-2009, 07:14 AM
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Just to clarify..., Ruf Automobile GmbH has been a recognized car manufacturer from 1981 and their unique VIN numbers were affixed to any vehicles solely manufactured by Ruf in Pfaffenhausen. These vehicles would have been created using bare 911 body/frame units purchased from Porsche (ordered by a Porsche part number) without any other stampings, numbers or identifiers. Ruf added their unique VIN numbers and ID plates when making a car to order for a customer. These cars did not start life as mass produced cars..., they were not ROW models and they did not exist until they were created by Ruf in Pfaffenhausen.

Porsche VIN cars converted by Ruf would still carry their original Porsche VIN number as the legal identifier of that car.

Contrary to what may be believed, Ruf Automobile has very good record keeping of the cars they have produced and converted. The archived information on my 1989 CTR was extensive and complete.

Paulo
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Old 12-31-2009, 03:10 PM
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Just to claify what you said. Are their 2 (or more?)types of cars then that came from RUF? One that was built from scratch as a bare body shell with no Porsche production standard VIN stamped anywhere. And then you say a RUF Converted at the factory car that had a stamped Porsche VIN ( not necessarily a ROW ) with additional RUF Vin numbers added to the chassis and this is all that were made that were genuine RUF? All others are not real even though they have the same parts and modifications using genuine RUF parts installed by RUF factory techs with RUF numbers added when built albiet away from the home factory? Also the ROW cars with RUF ID Plates, where in your estimation do they fit ? Also, It then should be easy to identify all the cars thay built( no matter where, if they sent the techs with the parts to do the conversion to a US car) if the factory is forth coming with any VIN question, from 1981 ( I've heard claim of fire damaged to early records). I'm not trying to dispute what you say, just clear up many misconceptions and misrepresentations made by many that are trying to establish what they have as I have heard many different stories over the years.
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Old 12-31-2009, 05:11 PM
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I recently looked seriously at a late model Ruf vin car. Their record keeping is terrible.
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Old 12-31-2009, 05:57 PM
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Further to your comments, I think it is possible to categorize Ruf cars and products as follows:

A. Ruf manufactured cars, created at their factory in Pfaffenhausen, Germany, using a bare Porsche 911 body/frame unit. These cars carry a unique Ruf VIN number and are made to customer order. They would be identified as a Ruf car and would be licensed as a Ruf car.

B. Ruf conversion cars, converted at their factory in Pfaffenhausen, Germany, using the customer’s Porsche VIN 911 as the donor car which is stripped and modified to accommodate all necessary Ruf parts in order to make the same Ruf model as described in A. above. This car would still carry its Porsche VIN number unchanged and would be licensed as a Porsche.

C. Ruf conversion cars, converted by one of Ruf’s agents or technicians outside of Pfaffenhausen, Germany by the method described in B. above.

D. Porsche cars which have had various Ruf parts installed by either Ruf Automobile GmbH, various Ruf agents, Porsche workshops or individual owners and which may have many Ruf visual identifiers (wheels, bumpers, instruments, emblems, decals, etc.). These cars could best be described as modified Porsches.

Notes:

It is clear that, for example, a CTR model created as described in B. would have all the specialized Ruf parts and correct body/frame modifications as would a CTR model created in A. It would have the same performance and the same appearance inside and out. However, in the eyes of a potential buyer, the Ruf VIN CTR may have more appeal because it was “born” in Pfaffenhausen, not Stuttgart, and therefore may also command a higher asking price.

Also, I think a conversion done as described in C. above would be the equal to those described in B., with the proviso that all the necessary modifications were done. I say this because to create a CTR off-site from the Ruf factory would entail completely stripping the donor car down to its bare shell so the necessary modifications to the motor compartment, rear fenders, rain gutters, etc. could be completed. Other Ruf model conversions (BTR, RCT) may not be as complex as a CTR and therefore be somewhat easier to complete off-site.

Ruf VIN cars and Ruf conversions of Porsche models were very expensive undertakings for their customers. Anyone who has a Ruf VIN or converted car for sale should have all the Ruf documentation that proves its identity. I would not consider purchasing such a car if the seller could not provide correct documentation to support its stated provenance. Likewise, I believe that Ruf Automobile would be able to assist a potential buyer by confirming the identity of any Ruf car made or converted by them in Pfaffenhausen.

I am not familiar with Ruf identification labels or metal tags that may have been installed in the same location as Porsche VIN stampings. Obviously, these would be vital to help identify when and who carried out the conversion and I expect that the factory could assist anyone with their enquiries concerning details of the conversion.

Ruf make approx. 20 new Ruf VIN cars per year. If we assume that they have been doing this since the late 1980s, then there are over 400 original Ruf VIN cars currently existing without mentioning all the Porsche VIN cars that were converted nor all the buyers of individual Ruf components (like 5-speed gearboxes) that were installed in various Porsche models over this period of time.

Finally, anyone owning a Porsche equipped with Ruf parts is free to describe it in any manner they please. There will always be the question of how many Ruf parts and modifications justify a change (in the mind of the owner) from Porsche to Porsche-Ruf. If it is clear after a thorough inspection of the car that it has genuine Ruf parts and the owner can provide documents that confirm these parts were purchased from Ruf and installed in the prescribed manner, then I think this enhances the value of that car. To quantify this increase in value is a matter to be decided between a willing buyer/seller in an open market place.

I have found Marc Bonger's book entitled Porsche and Ruf sportscars published by Motor buch Verlag (Stuttgart) to be very useful as it has a good overall Ruf company history plus a description of all Ruf models up to 2005 and all Porsche models up to the Carrera GT. It is available from Ruf Pfaffenhausen (check their website) for a reasonable price.

Steven C. - not sure who you were talking to..., Ruf Dallas or Ruf Germany or private seller? If it was a recent model being offered for sale by Ruf themselves, then I can't see any reason why they could not show you vehicle documentation in order to answer your questions unless the original owner has lost the paperwork or for some reason there are privacy issues. It what regards was their record keeping terrible?
Old 01-01-2010, 07:03 AM
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paulo, Thanks for your in depth analysis and insight to a reasonable format of how to assess a level of "desireability" ( politically correct defination of value ). It makes sense to me. The RUF book should further help clear up any grey areas for anyone considering a existing RUF related purchase.
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Old 01-01-2010, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulo View Post
Further to your comments, I think it is possible to categorize Ruf cars and products as follows:

Notes:

Also, I think a conversion done as described in C. above would be the equal to those described in B., with the proviso that all the necessary modifications were done. I say this because to create a CTR off-site from the Ruf factory would entail completely stripping the donor car down to its bare shell so the necessary modifications to the motor compartment, rear fenders, rain gutters, etc. could be completed. Other Ruf model conversions (BTR, RCT) may not be as complex as a CTR and therefore be somewhat easier to complete off-site.


Ruf make approx. 20 new Ruf VIN cars per year. If we assume that they have been doing this since the late 1980s, then there are over 400 original Ruf VIN cars currently existing without mentioning all the Porsche VIN cars that were converted nor all the buyers of individual Ruf components (like 5-speed gearboxes) that were installed in various Porsche models over this period of time.

paulo,

Very well addressed. However I'd to add a couple comments.

1) I don't belive there are any CTRs that were completed off-site simply based on the complexity of the vehilce as you've stated.

2) Regarding statement (A),
- There are numerous "Ruf manufactured cars, created at their factory in Pfaffenhausen, Germany, using a bare Porsche 911 body/frame unit that Do Not carry a Ruf Vin as Ruf was not alway's designated as a manufacturer.

- It was not until after thier TUV Certifiation in the late 80's that their Porsche supplied bodys began to carry a Ruf Vin

- Although "body blanks" were supplied by Porsche, these earlier cars carried Porsche Vin #s. Also, it should be noted that not all cars turned out by Ruf were turbo chared (CTR, BTR) units.


Paulo, am I incorrect or do is it you that owns the Red Ruf that resides in Canada?
BTR?

Rgeards,
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Old 01-01-2010, 02:30 PM
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Onboost,

I would like to address your comments concerning Ruf VIN cars:

1.) Although I would agree it would make sense that all CTR1s (both Ruf VIN and Porsche conversions) would have been built in Pfaffenhausen because of their complexity, I know of one lightweight CTR that was completed in the USA using an early Porsche 911 chassis. This converted car is still with its original owner and is located in Florida.

2.) Hopefully, the following will help clarify details around Ruf’s manufacture of their own cars;

a) In 1981, the German Federal Bureau of Motor Vehicles certified Ruf Automobile GmbH as an automobile manufacturer. To my knowledge, this certification is not within the purview of the TüV.

b) In 1983, the first vehicles to carry a unique Ruf chassis number (VIN) were the Ruf BTR 3.4 models. These cars were hand-built to customer’s orders from bare body/frame shells up.

c) The Sept. 1984 issue of Road & Track featured the world’s fastest cars at the VW test track where a Ruf BTR went 186 mph. This competition was limited to car manufacturers only so Ruf was included because they were a manufacturer since 1981. Tuners were not allowed to participate.

d) I think is important to understand that the stamping of VIN numbers on blank body/frame shells in any jurisdiction is not a casual process and is strictly controlled by government regulation. Any body/frame carrying a Porsche VIN number originally stamped by Porsche AG cannot be altered by Ruf or anyone else. It is my understanding that when a bare body/frame shell is ordered from Porsche, it is identified only by a part number as would any other part and it would not be stamped with any Porsche VIN or production numbers. Ruf would then stamp their own unique VIN numbers on these shells and the resulting cars would be legally registered and licensed as Ruf automobiles.

e) Any original Porsche VIN cars that Ruf modified or converted (without using bare body/frame shells) may have additional Ruf number tags affixed (as you mention) to further identify them as cars Ruf has worked on. These Ruf tags would not be used to replace any original Porsche VIN tags or information. These cars would continue to be registered and licensed as Porsche vehicles.

f) I think it is fair to say that any Porsche VIN car that was born in Stuttgart, Leipzig or at any other Porsche production facility will always remain legally registered and licensed as a Porsche, no matter how many modifications to its original production configuration have been performed by owners, dealers or other workshops. Likewise, the very few Ruf VIN automobiles that were born in Pfaffenhausen will always be legally registered and licensed as Ruf cars.

3.) I am the owner of the red CTR1 that resides in Ontario, Canada. It is chassis number 012 of the 29 original Ruf VIN CTRs made in Pfaffenhausen.
Old 01-06-2010, 09:45 AM
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Paulo,

Thanks for the clarification.. I thought that was you commenting as owner of #012. Welcome aboard!

I have been at this for sometime and to be both honest and blunt, I sometimes get the timelines twisted and have forgotten more about these cars than some people claim to know.

My confusion was with points; a) and b) above as my understanding of these dates was 1991 and 1993 respectively. However, point c) clears it for me as I have this issue of Road and Track in my collection and this event is further referenced in Ruf, Fascination Auf der Nurburgring.

Regarding TüV Certification. In some case it acts like the US version of DOT and/or EPA in that it requires a "manufacturer" to meet certain standards;

•Verifying the use of quality materials in the manufacture of an automotive product.
•Emissions standards are similar to the original manufacturers standards.
•No danger in the fit or use of the product.
•Verifying that stated power and economy figures are accurate and are not misleading.

I am very well versed on the understanding of VIN numbers and the government regulations surrounding them.. both the Federal and State & local levels here in the U.S. Having imported several cars from Europe, as well as having assisted others in doing so in the 80's.
Also, being fortunate enough to have had a reasonably close relationship with some at DOT offered me a unique view of the process and the issues that haunted others regarding VIN #s.

Regarding d), e), f); Yes, as you have stated.. However, let me clarify that I did not assume or address these cars has having their VIN numbers replaced. The affixed tags I have seen and refer to were additional as stated.

I have enjoyed a number of conversation with Alois, he is always great to talk with. I did so last during the Parade @ Hershey and of course at his Birthday party just after. I believe this was the start of his N. American tour with the Yellow Bird?

Best Regards and enjoy the beast!

Paul
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Old 01-06-2010, 11:55 AM
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I use to visit Tweeks all the time and even worked at the Long Beach/Signal Hill location and Alois Ruf had a shop in the same complex building his mastepieces. One that comes to mind was a white 1979 with all the Ruf goodies that Allstar Tires of Paramount bought or had Ruf build for them. Others may remember that shop also.

I built my own slantnose with mostly factory parts after lusting over that one but not having an extra $100,000.00 or more at the time. This was around 1988.
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Old 01-06-2010, 12:36 PM
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Hi Paul,

Your comments have been informative and instructive for me. You obviously have considerable experience importing cars into the USA and dealing with DOT, EPA and State requirements. In this regard, Canadians are somewhat luckier than our USA neighbours in that we can import any car into Canada as long as it is 15 years old or more. We do not have to bring it into conformance with any federal regulations, however, cars less than 15 years of age at the time of importation must meet all Canadian DOT requirements.
I was at the PCA Parade at Hershey and spent some time with Alois and the Ruf crew. I believe this was near the end of Yellowbird's USA visit. Interestingly, this was at the same time that the restoration work on my CTR commenced at Pfaffenhausen. Good memories!

Cheers from cold and snowy eastern Ontario.

Paul
Old 01-06-2010, 02:34 PM
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Paul,

Thanks for your comments as well... in the day it was quite a learning experience with many gray areas.

You guys up north are very lucky with regard to the importation of vehicles. As for us, these days, I believe we are also allowed to import any car into the US as long as it is 15 years or older. However, I think this is a one time affair... once you bring one in your ticket is stamped. Of course there are some vehicles that can be brought in but not certified/registered for road use. Many have brought in later model cup-cars etc.. under this rule.

That Parade at Hershey was one of the best I've attended.. to have Ruf and his crew attend for many of us was Icing on the Cake! The owner (whose name slips right now) of Ruf AutoCentre and his wife were very engaging and fun to chat with.

But you.. you are the lucky one with the prize!

Cheers to you as well..

Paul
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RGruppe #180
So many cars.. so little time!!
Old 01-07-2010, 11:58 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,062
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Hey Paulo, still have the Matter cage? FWIW Lois did lose some records in a flood (water damage) and they have been "re-creating" them since. Did you put some miles on the CTR this year?

Onboost I saw those foil stickers that I never shipped in my office the other day, i will get them out to you some time I promise, but since the car is not near completion I am in no rush.

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Lincoln Phillip
87 930 Motec EFI M600 G50/50 TurboKrafted Hell Hound.
Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge, Ram, SRT & AEV Dealer pm me for your Mopar needs.
"the 930 is THE CAR that started my PORSCHE love affair..." Magnus Walker
Old 01-07-2010, 08:25 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
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