Tough ultimatum from spouse

[stomachmonkey]

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067a_qa.html

"Abusive behavior usually begins when a couple tries to resolve a conflict the wrong way. Instead of finding a solution that meets the conditions of the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse), an effort is made by one spouse to force a solution on the other. Resistance to the proposal is matched by increasing force until the spouse browbeats the other into submission. Every fight is an example of abuse because it uses the tactic of emotional or physical force to resolve a conflict instead of respect and thoughtfulness.

The Love Busters -- angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments and selfish demands -- are all examples of the way one spouse tries to force his or her will onto the other. They can all be regarded as abusive ways to resolve conflicts because they all cause pain and suffering. In fact, whenever a decision is made that fails to take the feelings of the other spouse into account, a case can be made for abuse. "

[WOODPIE]

livi,

I'm a little late to the discussion, and everyone else has already given the good advice I thought of first...


I can only add the suggestion that you tell the woman you aren't going to put up with anymore of her mumbojumbo. That ought to do it.

Ed

[Don Ro]

Originally posted by nostatic
And just to reinforce a couple of other comments: one of THE most important things is for *you* to figure out why you chose her, and why you stuck around so long. I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but your situation says a lot about you, your past, and your personality. If you don't get to the root issues, you will just repeat this pattern with the next one (ask me how I know). This is critically important: find a good shrink and get to the very difficult and painful work of figuring out why you unconciously believe that you are not worthy of a good relationship. Our unconcious mind is incredibly powerful, and drives us to do things that we don't even realize. You would not believe the things I've sorted out over the last month...so many past decisions make sense in light of how my unconcious mind works. I though I was doing something for a particular reason, but the real drivers were totally different...

As many here can attest, including myself, sometimes it takes a trauma, some form of "hitting bottom" in order for us to awaken. The episode (s) can be the springboard to an awakening that we have not really had much of a vote in our lives. As Todd suggests, something else is running our show. A key component of the "something else" can be that the relationship we have with ourselves is fundamentally dishonest. Realizing that can be a shocker. After all, from where, from whom did we ever learn to have an honest intimate relationship with ourselves, or with anyone else for that matter? For the most part, healthy human functionality is rarely modeled.

Our primary care-givers didn't have "It" to model for us; their vote was cancelled by their own self-alienation - and it's a multi-generational thing. In fact, being asleep is a natural and appropriate by-product of the early formation of the personality of the ego - formed as a defensive survival strategy that allows us to cope w/our early family experiences as well as society in general.

So we motor along in life under this influence of mistaken identity...we think that who we are is the mental content of our egoic energies (false self) rather than our True, our Real Self that awaits us in Beingness.

Once we gather the appropriate information, our critical self-examination, our deep personal enquiry can begin.
We begin to see that more is possible (remember Peggy Lee - "Is That All There Is?"), we learn to identify those unconscious drives prior to acting them out, we learn self-forgiveness, we begin to get out of our own way, we begin to realize that we are not alone, we finally begin to live.
We often look back and are grateful for the episode (s) that triggered it all.

At some point, we become better relationship material...we can finally choose to have an intimate relationship with another person that is not inferior to the one that we have with our Self.

The above is greatly simplified, I know.

ps My awakening was triggered ~24 yrs. ago when my fiancé had an affair. I fell off the floor, I was mortified by how deeply alone I was, there was simply no one in there. Now that's a trauma.
.
"when you lose, don't lose the lesson"

[artplumber]

"The problem is all inside your head", she said to me
The answer is easy if you take it logically
I'd like to help you in your struggle to be free
There must be fifty ways to leave your lover
She said "it's really not my habit to intrude"
Furthermore I hope my meaning won't be lost or misconstrued
So I repeat myself, at the risk of being crude
There must be fifty ways to leave your lover, fifty ways to leave your lover

Just slip out the back, Jack, make a new plan, Stan
Don't need to be coy, Roy, just listen to me
Hop on the bus, Gus, don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee, and get yourself free

She said "it grieves me so to see you in such pain"
I wish there was something I could do to make you smile again
I said, I appreciate that, but would you please explain about the fifty ways

She said, "why don't we both just sleep on it tonight"
And I believe, in the morning you'll begin to see the light
And then she kissed me and I realized she probably was right
There must be fifty ways to leave your lover, fifty ways to leave your lover

Just slip out the back, Jack, make a new plan, Stan
Don't need to be coy, Roy, just listen to me
Hop on the bus, Gus, don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee, and get yourself free

Paul Simon

[nostatic]

evidently i'm a little hard headed...i've hit bottom a number of times, and figure i might have a couple more left in me

Something to read if you're interested:

http://www.holisticpsychoanalysis.com/html/the_mother_s_signature.html

My g/f went to a seminar led by Bail last year and I tagged along. About halfway through the morning session I had a moment of clarity...things started to make sense. I ended up finding someone in this school of practice to work with, and it has been enlightening to say the least. God aweful work, but at least in my case, totally necessary.

And lest you think that Bail is just some pansy shrink:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/02/20060224-1.html

He told some stories at the seminar about the war...he'd never told them in public before. Absolutely harrowing stuff.

[bigchillcar]

The above is greatly simplified, I know.

good stuff, don. thanks for sharing it. there was infidelity in the divorce of my parents..fortunately, it has never been an occurence/factor in any of my significant other relationships. i saw firsthand how painful it was to the parent affected and how alone she suddenly felt (my mother). i can only imagine how you must have felt. my battle with ptsd and depression is well-documented on this board..my gf finally 'jumped ship' last august and quickly found someone. i can attest to how alone this left me..and how much i instinctively blamed myself for the failure. making things right with oneself is oftentimes the toughest battle of all. you're always the 'last person' to forgive yourself..
ryan

[ZLP]

As my high school gym coach used to say, "Be the hammmer, not the nail"

[livi]

I am overwhelmed. Your contribution is price less.

I believe there is somebody I need to get better acquainted with. That somebody being ME. A professional is probably very good advice.

Not least, and here comes the sad part, since thinking back I would say 75% of me have wanted to leave her for the last three years. I think I just don´t have the guts. I can now recognize the coward anti aggressive wimp inside myself. I need to be thoroughly abused and trashed before I can muster enough energy to make it stop. What a tragic individual I have turned into. A true victim of myself. A genuine looser.

[dtw]

Markus - you are not a loser. Don't get down on yourself. You'll get out of this OK, hang in there.

[Don Ro]

Markus,

Relax...'not tragic and not a loser.

Perhaps you're attracted to strong-willed women simply due to not yet having developed your own innate aspects of Will and Strength (not uncommon).
If so, at least you know the area within yourself needing attention.
That's good news, my man.
Frankly, most normal (not to be confused with 'healthy') folks select their mates based on their own subconscious sense of lack.

Also if so, now/then a strong-willed person can harbor an inclination towards dehumanization, etc.
Maybe your lady is one of those. (?)

The battle we'll always lose is the one we have w/ourselves, so have some empathy and compassion for yourself and your own development possibilities.
There's an entire new world waiting for you in there. Go get it - it's your birthright.

[nostatic]

hey, reconizing the *behavior* is the first step. Next is having some self compassion. After that is standing up for yourself, and finding the quiet little voice that's been shouted down by the loud obnoxious ones. It works. Just don't expect it all at once.

AA saying: inch by inch life's a cinch. Mile by mile life's a trial.

[tabs]

Unfortunately no matter how U cut it your going to be in for a ***** storm...so be prepared....it ain't gona be easy. U are going to be made to look and feel like the worst A-hole in the world...a GUILT TRIP is coming your way.

I would say for your own SURVIVAL your going to have to leave. So start getting your ducks in a row

1. A GOOD Attorney to lay out what you have to do, and what the law says you can and can't do. What your rights are...You have major financial issues to deal with here.

2. Seeing a Shrink, getting some proffessional help will help clarifiy your own position and give you the support you need to see this thing through.

Until you put these two things into action, you have to keep your mouth shut.

THIS WOMAN IS YOUR ENEMY..anything you say or do will be USED AGAINST YOU. So the less said the better. Just the facts max...REMEMBER THIS AT ALL TIMES...DON"T DO ANYTHING U WILL REGRET.

After U get the first two items lined up then... Since she gave you an ULTIMATMUM either just ignore it which will make her angier and angier till she blows... or just calmly tell her your NOT GOING TO MARRY HER either way let her make good on her threats...which presumably is that she will leave you...

She is going to make U look like an ********* but at least U will be an ALIVE *********...

Nobody can do this for you, you have to have the courage to do this for yourself and its a frightening proposition. The most we can do for U is to hold your hand through this and offer our support..GOOD LUCK...

[tabs]

Ohhh...YOu have to SAVE YOURSELF...before you can save your daughter...and I don't think she is going to leave on her own, but she will ratchet up the war...forcing U to be the one to leave..

[Eli at Pelican Parts]

OMG,

THIS IS YOUR QUOTE:

"She also disregard my three kids from my former marriage. Disliking me spending time or money on them."

Read it back to yourself.......

Remember if you do leave file for custody and fight hard now, once it's on paper it's tough to get it changed.

Good Luck,

-Eli

[Don Ro]

Tabs has his own little soap opera going on over there.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by livi
I am overwhelmed. Your contribution is price less.

I believe there is somebody I need to get better acquainted with. That somebody being ME. A professional is probably very good advice.

Not least, and here comes the sad part, since thinking back I would say 75% of me have wanted to leave her for the last three years. I think I just don´t have the guts. I can now recognize the coward anti aggressive wimp inside myself. I need to be thoroughly abused and trashed before I can muster enough energy to make it stop. What a tragic individual I have turned into. A true victim of myself. A genuine looser.

You are not a loser by a long shot! A loser would sit there and take it for the next 20 years then someday ask themselves what happened to their life and why did they waste it with a person like this.

You realized that this was not working out and have now taken steps to correct it. The tragic part of this is that its taken several years of living with this woman to get you to this point. Now take some steps to your survival and the survival of your child. There are some excellent points on this thread, print it out and embrace the ones that you feel comfortable with and start moving forward.

You owe it to yourself and your child to make a future for the two of you. Your ex-girlfriend has made her bed and let her lie in it, alone or spoiling someone elses life.

You are a doctor. Start healing yourself then save your child. Move on to a friendly place in life then start moving ahead!
Joe

[Don Ro]

Markus,

A question, please.
Does your lady's ultimatum have a definite time frame?

[Don Ro]

Originally posted by nostatic
Something to read if you're interested:
http://www.holisticpsychoanalysis.com/html/the_mother_s_signature.html
My g/f went to a seminar led by Bail last year and I tagged along. About halfway through the morning session I had a moment of clarity...things started to make sense. I ended up finding someone in this school of practice to work with, and it has been enlightening to say the least. God aweful work,...

Thanks for that link...excellent info. I have not heard of Bernard W. Bail, M.D.
He speaks with elegance and great humanity.
I like the way he presents his obvious vast knowledge.
I saved it and will look through it more tomorrow and later.
.
Are you involved with his ongoing discussion group?

[livi]

Well, what spilled over on me from tabs "soap opera" was excellent reading - pure heart n´soul like every one of your 100 posts.

Joe, I lay awake last night reading print outs over and over for two hours. There is material worthy of a doctor´s thesis. Awesome and humbling.

Don, no time limit has been set besides "Marry me or beat it!". The ultimatum was handed to me a week ago. Repeated several times a day since then. Our home has been a was zone these last days. Me trying to calm it down for the benefit of the children. At one point, one night, I lost it - gave up. Ok, if this is what you really want. Got dressed and opened the front door - mentally just screaming to get away from her. At that point she raised the stakes dramatically. Looking like a total maniac, with a mad, deranged look in her eyes she turned everything around screaming - if you walk out that door I will make you suffer and hurt in a way your nightmares would compare to a pic-nic. You will never see your daughter again, she will suffer - and it will ALL BE ON YOUR CONSCIENCE !!

I just caved in. Puddle on the door step. Closed the door and piled up on the floor. Terrified what she might be capable of.

[Kroggers]

Hay Markus, I am sorry about your situation - I have been there with my ex in the UK. The main reason for my move back to Scandinavia. This was a hard choice, as I had to leave my 6 year old bundle of fun in the UK. I also come from a broken family. My father pissed off when I was 7, but we now have a really good relationship. Blood is thick my friend, and she can not keep you child away from you....